Mg-34 breakdowns.

[Pave]

About the original question.

I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.

[Lars Remmen]

Originally posted by Pave:
About the original question.

I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.

Pave,

I have also read from several sources that the MG34 was a very well made weapon with one flaw: It took too long to produce. Could it be that there were other reasons to the Finnish MG34's unreliability? Ammo or weather perhaps? Any ideas?

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Lars
Nec Temere - Nec Timide

[This message has been edited by Lars Remmen (edited November 07, 2000).]

[BA Evans]

The MG34 was a precision crafted weapon with very tight tolerances. They could become fouled with debris very easily. The extreme cold also played havoc with the gun's reliability.

BA Evans

[The MSG]

Originally posted by Pave:
About the original question.

I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.

Perhaps they meant that ammosupply was unreliable, not the weapon. I dont know if the Finns produced any 7,92 indigenously.




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The MSG

[Hans]

My father told me, he experienced problems with the ammo later in the war. There was a shortage in brass, so the cases were made of steel and were painted dark green. This paint came off and tended to jam the mechanism.

Hans

[TheOriginalOverlord]

Steel cased ammo was made from the very beginning. I have a box of 1939 dated German 8mm. I think what you are referring to is the laquer coating not the paint on casings. If you fired an MG and got it hot the laquer would end up melting and turning to a sticky goo in the weapons chamber causing the cases to not extract. The only remedy was to strip the weapon and clean off the laquer with a solvent. If you didn't get all the laquer off it would start to jam again as soon as it got hot.

HTH

Semper Fi

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Semper Fi!

Overlord

[panda124c]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami:
The 2 reasons barrels are changed are they are hot and need to cool down (product of rate of fire) and to have all the barrels for that weapon wear at same rate so as to not change the "dope" (data) from barrel to barrel.


My understanding of the reason for the barrel change in the MG 34 and 42 was for cooling. In order to maintain a high rate of fire the barrels were changed to replace a hot barrel before it became useless. Thus the MG42 (not sure about the 34) was issued to troops with two barrels and an asbestos glove. The MG42 replaced the MG34 because of ease of production (most parts were stanped instead of machined) and rate of fire.

Those Russia hordes sure burn up barrels.

[BlitzSS]

It looks like the consensus is that the MG 34 and 42 were and still are darn good weapons. The only remaining question is does the code have these weapons breaking down too often? If the code takes into account rate of fire (barrel heat related) then the probability of breakdown should increase proportionally as the # of shots/turn increase, rather then as it seems, that breakdowns occur during the 1st round that is fired. Should MG breakdowns be more repairable then other weapon systems and in a shorter duration? Will Matrix ever look at these issues, or will we just have to accept these rules as a general overview of the concept, and tweak them as one such suggestion, by alternating turns in which this preference is activated?

This column here needs to be converted to the Grognards handbook on MG maintenance. I can’t help but to be impressed with wealth of knowledge that has earned this reputation. I extend my personal thanks to everyone’s input Keep up the interesting work guys.

[Grumble]

FWIW,
I turn the weapons breakdown "off" for many of the reasons you've all given. If each turn simulates several minutes, I find it hard to believe that a crew is firing continuously throughout that time unless in FPF. Also, the several minutes gives one time to clear stoppages, change a barrel, adjust a firing position,etc. HOWEVER, if the scenario is late '44-45 then due to an overall decline in training and maintenance, and worse ammo quality (due to a change in the steel alloy in the cartridges) one can make the case that malfunctions should be a factor.

[Pave]

MSG, I don't it was unreliable ammo supply, because it was mentioned separately. Finns didn't have much use for the 7.92mm ammo (except in ME-109G-2) so ammo supply wasn't too good for that calibre.

I'll try give a translation what the book said:

This was written by major Lounila to colonel Bjorkman in September 16, 1943:

"...7.92 MG34 is included separately to the assault gun armament. The gun is not perfect compared to the 7.62mm DT. They have experienced malfunctions in Germany too. I suggest that it is replaced by 7.62mm DT." (Laguksen rynnäkkötykit, Erkki Käkelä, p. 93)

[Arralen]

Easiest way to get a breakdown with the MG34/43/3 .. :

Fire long belt (250 rounds), pull out the barrel and drop it into the snow

A.

PS: True story

[jerrek]

actually it makes sense that mg34/42 has barrels swapped every 250 rounds rather than thrown away or 2 many would be used. Next time i pick up a soldier (taxi driver) i will ask him about their assault rifles as i am sure that they throw them away (in peacetime anyway) after 200 rounds. Of course asault rifles are in reality only single shot weapons if you want accuracy so they don't shoot so many rounds. Actually the steys are very unreliable if not kept clean - if you do not clean them constantly, particularly if they get wet rust sets in the barrel (possible court martial).

[Peregrine Falcon]

You mean Steyr AUG?

Oh god I love that assault rifle, I wish I had one

Gotta love that bullpub-design

Originally posted by jerrek:
Actually the steys are very unreliable if not kept clean - if you do not clean them constantly, particularly if they get wet rust sets in the barrel (possible court martial).

[KriegPanther]

The MG34 was history prone to breakdowns in harsh conditions. This wasn't because the weapon was poorly made, but actually because it was too finely made. The tolences where exact, and there was only the bare minimum of play between parts required for operation. This lack of play meant that dirt could easily foul weapon. I believe this was largely corrected on the MG42. It also wouldn't effect vehicle mounted weapons as much, as they weren't lugged through the mud like those used by the infantry.

[Grumble]

True, I also read, and heard from veterans, that the reason the MG34 stayed in vehicles was the "new" MG42 barrels wouldn't fit into the vehicle MG mounts.

[Mike Rothery]

Originally posted by jerrek:
I was speaking with a soldier of the australian army recently and he told me that the styer assault rifle was rated for 200 rounds per barrel before replacement. Obviously they could do more if required but i suppose they would be less reliable. Under automatic fire they go transparent and you can see the bullets going up the barrel. Aty this point i would imagine the barrels are quite weak and easily deformed. MG42 would have a similiar problem.
At the end of the war (not sure ww1or2) their was a test i remember about with some british shooting a vikers continuously with surpluss ammo to see how long it would last - i seem to remember they gave up after 6000 hours (or some stupid figure). Water cooling, heavy but useful.

I think that the guy meant that after 250 rounds of continuous fully automatic fire you would start to get barrel erosion, ie the rifling would start to wear away rapidly, and the accuracy would drop. The weapon will continue to function for a lot longer thanthis, but the barrel would have to be replaced.

As for the barrel becoming flexible, well a very hot barrel will droop, or whip when fired and start to lose long range accuracy, but this will recover when cool unless it was absolutley cooked.

The test on the Vickers gun you mentioned was in about 1910 before the First World War. The Vickers, like the Maxim on which it was based, was cooled with a water jacket. The test ended when they ran out of ammunition available at the range.

[Casualty]

I could accept some short malfunctions (Gun jamming etc.) but having something like over 10 malfunctons with machineguns lasting the whole battle is bit odd, it would require a major breakdown, where they that usual?

what about those mortars? Are they so sofisticated weapons that they can malfunction all the time and stay that way a whole battle? Those things keep on jamming too

[Kluckenbill]

I realize that we've just about seen all the improvements we're going to get in SPWAW, but having said that here's one that I would like: Different types of weapons should have different breakdown rates. Anyone that has used a variety of different types of weapons in their military careers knows that they have dramatically different reliability rates. My personal ratings on a scale of 1 to 10 for the stuff I used:

105mm Tank Gun - 9
152mm Gun/Rocket Launcher (M60A2) - 5
M2HB .50 Cal - 9
M85 .50 Cal - 8
M73/M240 7.62mm (coax) - 1 (maybe 0)
M60 7.62mm - 7
M16A1 - 7

Vehicles should have 2 rates, one for breakdown and one for getting stuck in the mud.


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Target, Cease Fire !

[TheOriginalOverlord]

Kluckenbill,
I like your list, great idea.

One thing..the M73 and M240 it's like comparing night and day. M73 was a total POS! Had to have it's own special ammo just to function. While the 240 on the otherhand is very reliable weapon, I haven't been able to break one yet...made a few parts fall off one but she kept on 'achugging out that 7.62 ammo!

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Semper Fi!

Overlord