Making Money in 1.04

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Erik Rutins
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: jscott991
I did not mean to imply that nothing would be done to address the economy in the future; only that it seemed that prior to my purchasing the game, it had been decided to reduce player revenues and that it seemed unlikely that a return to 1.03's economic situation would occur. And after playing some games on 1.03 and then playing on 1.04, I definitely felt nerfed.

The economy in 1.0.4 is much more like the pre-release economy before the economy "broke" and then was "fixed" to the point that it became extremely easy to make money.

My experience does not mirror your's at all, but I don't make it to the mid-game, because I go red in the early game and abandon it.
Three tests, with the following settings:
Human monarchy, 1000 star galaxy, research to normal, only 4 AI players all set to average or distant (I never encountered any), aggressiveness to normal, alien populations rare, no independents rising to empires, homeworld to agreeable, and everything else to default.
In terms of automation, ship construction was set to suggest, agents were taken off automatic, colonization was set to suggest, ship design automation was turned off, and everything else was set to automation.
My empire hits the red within 5-6 years. I run out of cash by that time as well. Most of my costs are associated with construction ships. I declined almost all military ship construction and I stopped building construction ships when I had 4-5 each time. I generally colonized every planet that I could, but I allowed the AI to handle mine construction, with the occasional suggestion (no more than 2-3 in any one game) to build a mine near an empire or galactic prioritized resource.

Thank you for the feedback on this.

How much in the red were you? If you abandon the game when you go red, you may be making a mistake and not giving your economy time to grow and become more profitable.
Erik Rutins
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by ASHBERY76 »

Looking at that screenshot tells me the game needs more economy nerfing.The economy in 1.3 was broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money in the game.It was like using cheats in EU3 to give you 1000 ducats every month.
 
This is ment to be a strategy game,so bloody use your head.
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jscott991
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by jscott991 »

Well, when you run out of cash (10k or more in the red) and your earnings are red as well (this fluctuates wildly, but I don't quit until it stays at least 10k in the red and my cash is gone), there isn't much to do except watch time pass and pray. A restart seemed the best strategy at each point when a few months failed to reverse the negative cash flow and my lack of cash prevented me from building anything.
ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Looking at that screenshot tells me the game needs more economy nerfing.The economy in 1.3 was broken because of the ridiculous amounts of money in the game.It was like using cheats in EU3 to give you 1000 ducats every month.

This is ment to be a strategy game,so bloody use your head.

If it's meant to be micromanaged and its going to be balanced on the assumption that players who micromanage need more of a challenge, then it bloody well better not sell its automation as a major feature.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: jscott991
Well, when you run out of cash (10k or more in the red) and your earnings are red as well (this fluctuates wildly, but I don't quit until it stays at least 10k in the red and my cash is gone), there isn't much to do except watch time pass and pray. A restart seemed the best strategy at each point when a few months failed to reverse the negative cash flow and my lack of cash prevented me from building anything.

10k in the red is nothing, to be honest. You can recover from that quite easily. This is not to say that I know that it will work in your specific case, but I've had economies go much further in the red and recover without an issue as long as I was patient about waiting for new colonies to develop. It seems like you're hitting the same problem some players had with the "broken" economy in 1.00 wherein you never really get past the early to middle game "hump". Once you have more developed colonies, your economy should start working much better.
If it's meant to be micromanaged and its going to be balanced on the assumption that players who micromanage need more of a challenge, then it bloody well better not sell its automation as a major feature.

Obviously, the game is intended to work both with micromanagement and with automation, our goal is to balance it so that you can mix and match the two to any degree. Micromanagement will almost always get the best possible results in any game like this, but the goal is not to nerf micromanagement and in the process break automation.

"Nerfing" is not the goal here in general, with the connotations that has in gaming. We are trying to rebalance the economy back to where we had it for most of pre-release. If you started with 1.0.3, you need to be aware that 1.0.1 through 1.0.3 was a bit of a "blip" for us, we've been testing this for two years with a more challenging economy overall than was in 1.0.1 through 1.0.3.

The pendulum will probably oscillate a bit more before we get everything rebalanced fully and this is not something we intended to have to do post-release, but now that we're here the more feedback we get, the sooner we can get this fine-tuned.
Erik Rutins
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Tacit_Exit
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Tacit_Exit »

Added Democracy and save name to my post, 40% uploaded as I post this.
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jscott991
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by jscott991 »

It strikes me that the bulk of your feedback is coming from micromanaging players.

Any game that listens to players who want more of a challenge always risks alienating those that do not. I've had this problem with every Matrix game I've purchased (which is, in fact, why I can't seem to stay interested in them for very long). That's my own fault for repeatedly sticking my hand in the flame seeking a different result, but it would be nice if a game lauded in reviews for its automation doesn't make using that automation impossible as it tries to cater to those who want more of a "challenge."

As I've said in this thread repeatedly, if you want us to micromanage, tell us how; make the information necessary to evaluate planets and mines more accessible (or accessible at all); and simply be clear about the direction the game is heading.

In my opinion, you won't be able to have it both ways. If you make the automation AI marginally profitable, you will make it too easy for micromanagers to be wildly profitable. But if you can strike that balance, you will have a wonderful game.
nammafia
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by nammafia »

I agree that the AI (Human in 700 star galaxy in my case) can handle economy very well because whenever I am in the red I automate everything and watch the money slowly coming back up. I am usually in the red when I have colonized four to five planets. I am still trying to figure out how to avoid getting into the red, manually.

However, it would be easier for players to have economic info on money making and money burning activities.

nammafia
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ASHBERY76
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by ASHBERY76 »

ORIGINAL: jscott991

It strikes me that the bulk of your feedback is coming from micromanaging players.

Who said you need to micromanage the economy? It is called strategy.
Druthlen
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Druthlen »

Ok well I played for 1 yr in patch 1.04 took a few games but I modded my strat. Build 1 exploration ship and 2 destroyers put all destroyers into fleet. Send the one escort and frigate to respond to pirates as distractions and send fleet of 3 destoryers to actually kill pirate. Manually assign constructor ships to only build on absolutely needed resources and all luxury resources I can find. 1 Yr out and all luxury resources are taken by me in area. I am +30k per income and a huge number of indepent ships are visiting my spaceports buying luxury. Seems luxury is where the cash is at......
Druthlen
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Druthlen »

Oh another thing is I avoid colonizing independent worlds they offer to much in the terms of trading opportunites. More so then they would ever pay in taxes....

Im also very thoughtful to the planets I colonize. To many new colonys is a huge drain on the luxury resources I got and it can kill my economy.
alexalexuk
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by alexalexuk »

ignore this post.

DasTactic
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by DasTactic »

ORIGINAL: jscott991

It strikes me that the bulk of your feedback is coming from micromanaging players.

Any game that listens to players who want more of a challenge always risks alienating those that do not. I've had this problem with every Matrix game I've purchased (which is, in fact, why I can't seem to stay interested in them for very long). That's my own fault for repeatedly sticking my hand in the flame seeking a different result, but it would be nice if a game lauded in reviews for its automation doesn't make using that automation impossible as it tries to cater to those who want more of a "challenge."

As I've said in this thread repeatedly, if you want us to micromanage, tell us how; make the information necessary to evaluate planets and mines more accessible (or accessible at all); and simply be clear about the direction the game is heading.

In my opinion, you won't be able to have it both ways. If you make the automation AI marginally profitable, you will make it too easy for micromanagers to be wildly profitable. But if you can strike that balance, you will have a wonderful game.

Well said. My feelings exactly. :)

My preference would be that if everything is automated the AI will manage your economy adequately. For those of us that just want to focus on a small aspect of the game, the AI should be able to do a reasonable job of the rest. For example, I've been considering playing a game where all I control directly is a fleet of ships leaving the AI to manage everything else.

If the die-hards want to micro-manage other aspects then the rewards/punishments should be subtle so the economy doesn't crash uncontrollably into the red or blow out the other way.
Sliverine
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Sliverine »

seems like the problems most have been facing would be involved with the AI...hmmm
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Lorini
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Lorini »

I'm sorry, but the game is boring when you have no money. How long are we supposed to stare at the screen, waiting for something to happen? I did it for 10 minutes and quit. And I agree, I think you are not going to be able to achieve a state where the game is challenging for both the automaters and the micromanagers unless you greatly improve the AI.
Druthlen
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Druthlen »

Well I must confess that I control everything. I moniter the pirvate sectors profits constantly and adjust taxes accordingly. It is a challenge to keep the private sector in the black but by doing so I costantly succeed in the state sector of the game. If the private sector goes red then trading in my spaceports suffer. If they are in the black then I get cash from them investing in new ships. What is frustrating is this info is not accessable without going to the empire info screen. Also whats annoying is having to scrap alot of ships becuase somewhere else in the galaxy demand for calson and polymer skyrocket to 90k demand but my stock is huge and my demand is 0 but it still increases my maintance costs to unreasonable lvls and I have to scrap ships to survive the economic turmoil. However it is easy to make money in patch 1.04 but you can nolonger have a huge military like in 1.03. Just fleet your ships and respond to pirates with a fleet large enough to destroy it but not to big as to kill your economy. Oh and patrol independent planets if pirate blockade them your state will go into the red. One escort per independent doesnt cost much and will give time for your small fleet of destoryers to respond. Also resorts are required to survive. The patch is fine and survivable its just a different game then 1.03.....

I think someone mentioned he played without pirates. This is not good as to the morale bonus pirates give to colonies when you blow them up. Without this bonus it is very difficult to get positive income. IMO a game with no pirates is a game on very difficult setting and you must really know how the game works if you expect to survive. I play with many pirates. More pirates more morale bonus more income. Its basicly an easy button :P Good luck.
gargoil
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by gargoil »

ORIGINAL: Druthlen
1) What is frustrating is this info is not accessable without going to the empire info screen.
ORIGINAL: Druthlen
2) Oh and patrol independent planets if pirate blockade them your state will go into the red.
ORIGINAL: Druthlen
3) This is not good as to the morale bonus pirates give to colonies when you blow them up. Without this bonus it is very difficult to get positive income.

1) Agreed... but then you go on with stuff that I really don't know how you know exactly...
2) How do you know how much an independent is profiting your empire? I tend to just colonized (or if they are not cooperative, invade them). So I should leave them be?
3) Again, how do you know how much this bonus is?
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: Lorini
I'm sorry, but the game is boring when you have no money. How long are we supposed to stare at the screen, waiting for something to happen? I did it for 10 minutes and quit. And I agree, I think you are not going to be able to achieve a state where the game is challenging for both the automaters and the micromanagers unless you greatly improve the AI.

This feedback is really not all that useful to us, FYI. As I've noted above, this Public Beta is about getting feedback on the economy changes so that we can tweak the balance. While I now know that you are unhappy with the balance, there's not enough info here to inform any tweaks except in a very rough sense.

This is a single player game, so balancing it for both playstyles is not the same challenge it would be in a multi-player game. Micro-managers will always be able to do better, but the goal is to make it so that people do not feel like things are not working if they have all the automation on.

Making generalization is almost pointless though, as the experience with one combination of race/government/galaxy settings can be very different from the experience with another.
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jscott991
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by jscott991 »

I won't play with pirates.

If they are critical to success then I'm screwed. I won't rant about pirates here, but interstellar buccaneers are somewhat hard to accept and still maintain immersion in the game world.
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Erik Rutins
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by Erik Rutins »

Just a heads up that 1.0.4 Beta 2 is now available.
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jscott991
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RE: Making Money in 1.04

Post by jscott991 »

Does it affect the economic balance? :)

I know it had an impressive list of bug and design screen fixes.
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