Russia

[Azuremane]

Here's the deal. I'm playing on hard mode and it's winter of 1942. I've knocked off England and every other European country that I can declare war on so I figure I'm sitting pretty good when I enter Russia after Russia declares war on me in the Winter of 1941.

At this point in the game, winter of 1942, Russia is making 462 PP per turn compared to my 169. I'm seeing a map of Russian units from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian 3 to 4 ranks deep. I'm just wondering if Russia might be just a bit over powered?

Any thoughts or suggestions? Maybe I should have invade Russia sooner?

[laska2k8]

I think that Russia is overpowered, I've stopped a game in middle 1945 playing as Italy.
Russia invades Italy through the Alpes (from north), Germany is totally annihilited (already from the end of the 1944) and I NEVER see any british or american unit in the all european soil (obviously except GB).

Germany in the maximum strength was far hundreds of km's from Stalingrad.

Maybe a tweak is needed.

[htuna]

ORIGINAL: Azuremane

Here's the deal. I'm playing on hard mode and it's winter of 1942. I've knocked off England and every other European country that I can declare war on so I figure I'm sitting pretty good when I enter Russia after Russia declares war on me in the Winter of 1941.

At this point in the game, winter of 1942, Russia is making 462 PP per turn compared to my 169. I'm seeing a map of Russian units from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian 3 to 4 ranks deep. I'm just wondering if Russia might be just a bit over powered?

Any thoughts or suggestions? Maybe I should have invade Russia sooner?

I actually have almost the same situation... England conquered with ease.. Then Russia declared on me in 42... I was doing well in the beginning even drove deep in to Russia the whole line.. At one point..Then stupid Italy convinced Hungary into declaring war on Russia and they rushed in that gap. I was able to form a strong line there.. but now Russia is building the high level Tank Corps and breaking through with ease any place on my line.. I've been able to close those gaps, but I see the sea of icons behind the lines on the Russia side. I have just enough Production Points to repair losses, but can't create any significant Corps to counter the Russian onslaught.. I think it's a lost cause.. I haven't played in a few weeks, figured there was no way to win that one.. Makes me wonder if I should've declared war on Russia in June of 41..

[zoot]

I have never had any diff. beating Russia on the hard level, the 1.70 patch changed a lot and gave them higher value units and it now takes longer. It did take me 2 yrs to take Leningrad, but Moscow and Stalingrad fell easily. I put Italy and Romania under Human control. Once because of a land grab by Russia from Romania I got involved with Russia before I completed taking France, made things interesting.
Get the Finns on your side so you can send units up North to take Murmansk,etc. Use Romanians to control partisans Poland and garrison cities.After you snuff the English in North Africa send the Italians into Russia. Don't try to match the Russians for planes, they have very many. Those stacks of units three layers deep are daunting, I usually can encircle them and leave them to Hungary and such to clean up after they drop to 1 point. I find that the computer usually does not sense when a bag is coming. Of course sometimes I lose units that way when unexpected guests show up in force. Chance you take,
Hope this helps
zoot

[cerosenberg]

This is a facinating discussion to me. I play Russia. I am learning dso i set Russia up at the easiest setting. Germany attacks in 1940 and Russian Procuction keeps falling until it virtually disappears. This is before the loss of moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Baku. I think there might be a bug which penalizes the "human" player independent of side. comments are welcome. I have given up on the game for now, or at least until I get swome clarification. Thank you.

[Chocolino]

Russian Procuction keeps falling until it virtually disappears. This is before the loss of moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Baku.

Hi Cerosenberg,

If your Soviet production falls too early to very low values without you loosing cities, one effect that comes to mind is the Bolshevik Industrial Revolution events. They increase your war economy (WE) rating at the cost of social unrest (SU). As both parameters are multiplied, a very low multiplier in one of them can cause havoc on your income. Also once your social unrest is high, your war economy is further reduced in addition to the SU effect (which kind of makes sense).

I try to always keep the SU below 50%. Also consider declaring war on a "minor" country early on with the Russians. It does miracles on the Soviet economy. (Baltics, Finland, Persia etc come to mind).

[Phelan]

My experiences of facing the bear so far, as Germany (with all Axis minors on human control as they joined the fray).

Soviet was at war with the Finns from winter ´39 up until they attacked me in oct-nov of 1940, making me lose all of the surprise effects in bad weather. Still, I made some progress and could even see his total forces starting to dip a bit. Then they kept growing, and growing... Russia´s war economy is at 230% or more and has been so for quite a while, I have taken Leningrad, Moscow down to Stalingrad. The Baku area is cut off and oos, it will fall in a few months. It is now feb 1942, in the north I have been forced to make small retreats but basically I´m holding and will push forward again when the weather clears. What has saved me is the Russian is still only at land doctrine 1 whereas I just got to 4 with Germany and all my techs are better except tanks where we´re matched. Still, the ai thankfully prefers masses of tank divs over tank corps, meaning he can´t really get enough concentration of strength to attack me.

But, overall it feels rather absurd - even if Russia has railed out his factories the loss of manpower and resources should affect his economy more than it does. Right now I´m pushing back this vast inferior horde inch by inch but may succumb trying to pay for the attrition I´m taking, and I really need ALL my German forces in Russia even still. One thing about the ai has struck me - the ai likes to double or triple stack, meaning his front units cannot retreat so I think I kill more enemies thanks to that, apart from the supply benefit you kan kill off a lot of units just from using that to your benefit.

(In the west, the UK does nothing but bomb my French garrisons, lose a few steps and then have to spend all his money on repairing the aircraft. I managed to take Egypt and Malta so CW only has Gibraltar as a port in the Med. Will see how much strength the US can bring if it ever joins.)

[doomtrader]

But, overall it feels rather absurd - even if Russia has railed out his factories the loss of manpower and resources should affect his economy more than it does. Right now I´m pushing back this vast inferior horde inch by inch but may succumb trying to pay for the attrition I´m taking, and I really need ALL my German forces in Russia even still. One thing about the ai has struck me - the ai likes to double or triple stack, meaning his front units cannot retreat so I think I kill more enemies thanks to that, apart from the supply benefit you kan kill off a lot of units just from using that to your benefit.

This remind me my history book.

[borsook79]

I generally play as Germans at hard, SU at easy. And I must say I find SU underpowered. Mainly because the game does not represent manpower in any way, and Germany same as Russians can replace their losses with no limitations. Reading the posts above claiming that Russia is overpowered it seems that the problem may lie in starting Barbarossa too late. Waiting until '42 seems like a mistake to me, it much easier to defeat Russia in '41 or even '40.

[Phelan]

What history book would that be? I don´t recall Germany taking Leningrad, Moscow, Baku and Stalingrad and still being faced with an ever-growing Russia. Even if they railed out their industries it feels a bit odd that in-game losing the European part of Russia and it´s oil has no affect whatsoever on its capacity to wage war. But maybe that´s just me?

[Phelan]

Ok, so how do you do it then? (I started in 1940 btw, or rather Russia started it in 1940, wasting the surprise for me in fall weather, maybe a surprise period in good weather would have let me cause more initial damage.)

More to the point, does Russia seem to be short of resources at any time or is working at maximum until you take the last objective?

[cpdeyoung]

The following are observations, and may even be inaccurate.
 
The AI enjoys productivity beyond a human players wildest dreams.  Take a look at the War Economy on the "Countries" screen for the Soviets and you will see a number a human cannot reach a year later.  It also seems to me the AI can get units into combat in parts of the line where the human would have to leave a gap.  The AI also seems to repair ships without returning to port.
 
I have won with the Axis against this super-producing monster, but it is not easy.  Starting early is important.  Divide and conquer makes a lot of sense. Do, indeed, make use of the poor defense tactics of the AI by exploiting the no retreat hex situation, but do not expect attrition to win the game for you.  Drive toward a shore if available and build pockets whenever possible.  You must get a position where you have interior lines.  Keep fresh Panzers rotating into spearheads and keep them pressing forward.  Be very careful of your Allied forces as the Soviets love to attack them.
 
I hope when the developers, busy fellows, can come back to ToW we can see more refinement of the situation here.
 
Chuck

[Phelan]

Ok, thanks, pocketbuilding is pretty much what I have been aiming for so far. Also, by now my Rumanians have level 2 land tech and soon Hungary as well, so the Rumanians can actually handle defense quite well by now.

On a sidenote, it seems only the USSR gets the huge production increase, CW so far doesn´t really seem to have cash for more than fixing it´s navy and air. (And they do go to port for that as far as I can tell, usually clearing a sea zone after a couple of weeks of hard fighting.)

[borsook79]

ORIGINAL: Phelan

Ok, so how do you do it then? (I started in 1940 btw, or rather Russia started it in 1940, wasting the surprise for me in fall weather, maybe a surprise period in good weather would have let me cause more initial damage.)

More to the point, does Russia seem to be short of resources at any time or is working at maximum until you take the last objective?

Too bad you missed the shock effect, it does wonders. No, Russia does not seem to to be short on resources at any time, but bear in mind that those resources should represent both industry AND manpower, which taking a few cities should not hurt... That said, Russia is never rich enough to build constantly new units and invest heavily in technology, as long as Germany stays 1-2 levels ahead in artillery/tanks/air you should be able to push Russians back. And every city you take, while not breaking Russian resistance adds to your production.

[gwgardner]

Take a look in the mods section for some simple changes to Russian build priorities and to the unit retreat factors. Changes the East Front substantially.

Also, waiting till '42 to attack the USSR is and should be foolhardy.

[borsook79]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Take a look in the mods section for some simple changes to Russian build priorities and to the unit retreat factors. Changes the East Front substantially.

Can you give specific examples? I do not see any such mods...

[Phelan]

ORIGINAL: cerosenberg

This is a facinating discussion to me. I play Russia. I am learning dso i set Russia up at the easiest setting. Germany attacks in 1940 and Russian Procuction keeps falling until it virtually disappears. This is before the loss of moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Baku. I think there might be a bug which penalizes the "human" player independent of side. comments are welcome. I have given up on the game for now, or at least until I get swome clarification. Thank you.

I looked at the event file for Russia about Bolsjevik Industrialization. There are two version, one for Human and one for AI Russia. As far as I can tell, the difference is the AI gets the WE +5 bonus without any Social Unrest increase. So, the AI will always accept the event and never get -7 SU each time it fires. A "minor" bonus to the AI [:D]

[borsook79]

ORIGINAL: Phelan

ORIGINAL: cerosenberg

This is a facinating discussion to me. I play Russia. I am learning dso i set Russia up at the easiest setting. Germany attacks in 1940 and Russian Procuction keeps falling until it virtually disappears. This is before the loss of moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad or Baku. I think there might be a bug which penalizes the "human" player independent of side. comments are welcome. I have given up on the game for now, or at least until I get swome clarification. Thank you.

I looked at the event file for Russia about Bolsjevik Industrialization. There are two version, one for Human and one for AI Russia. As far as I can tell, the difference is the AI gets the WE +5 bonus without any Social Unrest increase. So, the AI will always accept the event and never get -7 SU each time it fires. A "minor" bonus to the AI [:D]

AI needs all the help it can get...