AI Kills Me in GDP - GDP Screenshots Incl.

[jscott991]

The #2 GDP.

There are two other AI empires with higher GDP, but I think it would be repetitive to show them.

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

Actually, maybe something is up or corruption in 1.04 is very serious.

Corruption is very much murderously horrific in 1.04, which is probably why your income has basically evaporated: At this point, population growth doesn't contribute positive income, it contributes negative income as it increases your corruption faster than the additional population contributes income. Plus, as you push 100% corruption, population becomes increasingly useless.

It makes you miss the way 1.03's ship design AI suggested Nuclear Exterminators for your spaceports...because you sure could use them!

[Kruos]

Hmm... as far as I understand the game eco, corruption seems to be only soustracted localy to each planet GDP just before the income calculation, so it seems that, normaly, there is no link between corruption and low GDP (= two independant distinct things).

I will take a look at your interesting save jscott, in order to well understand what is occuring here. I have the feeling that, maybe, you huge amount of colonies is the key here (too much colonies in regards of luxuary ressources supply and consequently many of your colonies are underdevelopped, which means low GDP contribution for them...?). Dont know...

[Starfry]

I figured out why you have such a cruddy GDP, jscott. In your game, I cut all taxes to 0% (I'm such a nice guy, vote for me for president of the world) in order to boost the private sector economy. The economy did tank but the trade ports kept the economy going a bit for a short term. This short term loss helped get the private sector get enough money to equip the freighters with the latest technology then pretty much after a couple years, the GDP went up to 2501 with 160 colonies and 83% corruption at some high output colonies.

I have been thinking that the AI autotaxing is drawing too much from the private sector economy and hindering the AI from expanding further and becoming a threat.

[Bartje]

Aha; So he tanked the private sector, how considerate! [;)]

[jscott991]

I wonder why, though, the AI would autotax my private sector into oblivion, but wouldn't autotax the private sectors of the AI empires in the same way.

[Fishman]

How DOES taxation affect GDP anyway? As far as I can tell, private sector income is calculated by pop*dev, and then you skim a percentage of it for taxes. What effect does taxation have on the GDP, therefore?

[Kruos]

How DOES taxation affect GDP anyway? As far as I can tell, private sector income is calculated by pop*dev, and then you skim a percentage of it for taxes. What effect does taxation have on the GDP, therefore?

I think that GDP is not affected by taxation. I think that GDP is calculated from pop*dev (='value') and something else (maybe something like planet type, size, distance from the capital, etc).

Concerning the save, I loaded it and I have to say that the jscott planet GDP is very odd. It is something I have never seen in my games. Incredibly low. In this save all my asumptions concerning eco mechanism are false... maybe something is broken in this save (your GDP, planet by planet, is so strangely low..)?

I am in the fog. ^^

[ceyan]

I think that GDP is not affected by taxation. I think that GDP is calculated from pop*dev (='value') and something else (maybe something like planet type, size, distance from the capital, etc).

Private Sector Income is the value of your planets. Taxes are taken out in the Expenses section of the Private Sector. And its corruption/inefficiency (and everything that it modifies) which affects your planetary value.

I wonder why, though, the AI would autotax my private sector into oblivion, but wouldn't autotax the private sectors of the AI empires in the same way.

Based on your screenshot back in Page 3, it isn't taxation which is killing your private sector, its low planet GDP and high ship maintenance. Notice in Cindar's update his Private Sector may still be in the hole (although about half as bad), but he's increased the planetary GDP by 50% and his colonies are paying double in taxes versus your original save.

However, that goes to show that it isn't the fact that the AI is taxing you (or the AI Empires) to death. Which brings us back to corruption (inefficiency, whatever its going to be called) causing low planet GDP since the cap isn't working properly in 1.0.4.5.

[jscott991]

It probably is just corruption.

[Bartje]

GDP is affected by taxation as well as private sector ship cost & maintentance.
 
Was your private sector in the red?
 
If so that could explain low GDP & taxes [;)]

[Kruos]

Private Sector Income is the value of your planets. Taxes are taken out in the Expenses section of the Private Sector. And its corruption/inefficiency (and everything that it modifies) which affects your planetary value.

Hmm... I think you are wrong here. From my observations, Private Sector Income is the sum of all your planet GDPs, not the value.

Here are some screens which illustrate this :




This tend me to think that GDP is independant from the taxes rate, but is calculated from something else like I previoulsy said (surface & planet type, happyness, size, distance, etc.. ?).

[Starfry]

In a way, taxes do affect the GDP. When I loaded up jscott's game, I notice the majority of his planets have taxes up to 50% yet very little GDP growth. By slashing the taxes, GPD is gained by the increased population growth, even at high corruption.
When I mentioned the economy tanking, I meant the State ecomony was suffering a 300,000 deficit spending yet when the private sector started to gain money and built faster freighters. The tradeport income went up due to the need for more materials in order to build more feighters, the state economy was eased up to 14,000 deficit spending.
This is why I think the AI taxes needs to be adjusted for late game as it inhibits GDP growth when large empires need to rely on trade income rather than population taxation.

[Kruos]

In a way, taxes do affect the GDP. When I loaded up jscott's game, I notice the majority of his planets have taxes up to 50% yet very little GDP growth. By slashing the taxes, GPD is gained by the increased population growth, even at high corruption.

Yes, lot of things are indirectly affected by lot of things.

Concerning GDP calculation (or 'Private Sector Income', it is the same thing apparently), now I have the feeling that income bonus from race/gov combo are taken into account. I am investigating this, I will give some feedback as soon as I find something.

[ceyan]

Hmm... I think you are wrong here. From my observations, Private Sector Income is the sum of all your planet GDPs, not the value.

Yeah, I meant GDP. I kind of forget value is even there as a separate stat.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I wonder why, though, the AI would autotax my private sector into oblivion, but wouldn't autotax the private sectors of the AI empires in the same way.

Are you sure it doesn't? I find the AI empires to generally be doing more poorly then me.

And I always play with auto-tax on and it doesn't tax into oblivion... usually. (if there is lots of war weariness+race unhappy I am at war with their race it can fail to lower taxes to compensate... which is a problem.)

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I wonder why, though, the AI would autotax my private sector into oblivion, but wouldn't autotax the private sectors of the AI empires in the same way.

Are you sure it doesn't? I find the AI empires to generally be doing more poorly then me.

And I always play with auto-tax on and it doesn't tax into oblivion... usually. (if there is lots of war weariness+race unhappy I am at war with their race it can fail to lower taxes to compensate... which is a problem.)

Sorry, you took that a bit out of context. I was saying that I didn't think the AI overtaxed because the AI empires were doing better than me and presumably they were using the same type of taxation.

[Fishman]

And 13% corruption in less than 30 seconds into the game, too. Harsh.

[Kruos]

Some feedback from my tests on the eco :

- GDP calculation is something like : GDP = (A x Pop x Dev) x (1 - Corr) x (1 + RaceIncBonus + GovIncBonus)
with A = f(something), like corruption, number of planets, galaxy settings, etc..

- At the beginning of a game, for nominal settings -700 systems, everything on normal, 19 AIs-, I am pretty sure that A is something like A ~ 0,22.

- GovIncBonus used for calculations seems not compliant with those indicated in the galactopedia. From my tests there is some difference (Republic seems to give only +5% instead of +10% for example), but maybe it is my equation which is wrong or missing some others factors, so still to be confirmed by more tests.

- GovCorrBonus impacts directly the Corr value, but do not seem to be used in the calculation of GDP.

- Size, surface and planet type impacts max population number, but do not seem to be used in the calculation of GDP.

- Ruins impacts directly Dev, but do not seem to be used in the calculation of GDP.


Now that I understand better the eco I think I will take some time to play and try the new 1.0.4.6.