Can someone explain hull down to me?

[Voriax]

Originally posted by Akmatov
If I recall correctly the move to smooth-bore main guns was started by the Soviets. I'm at the office so I can't pinpoint just which tank they started with. Hmm, or was it the Brits?

Soviet T-62, service entry 1963. 115mm smoothbore is my offer for the first. I wonder if Brits have ever used smoothbores...

Voriax

[Akmatov]

T-62 115mm sound VERY right. I do 'think' the Brits had a smoothbore 120 before us, but not sure. Will check.

[rbrunsman]

Originally posted by Akmatov
BTB, how is hull-down modeled in SPWAW? I've tried to set tanks up in a hull-down position, but never succdeded. Is there some trick to it or is it not simulated?

I think you get the hull down bonus (ie only your turret can be hit and you are harder to hit) if you are at a higher elevation than the shooter and the shot is coming at your front. The caveat is that if the shooter is adjacent to you, then he can get a "bottom hit" on your AFV, which is not such a good thing. As the shooter at higher elevation, you also get the added bonus of reducing the effects of sloped armor deflections (ie greater armor penetration from your shots) and the chance of a top hit. The bottom line is: High Ground is Good. IMHO, that's how hull down is modeled in SPWAW.

[john g]

Originally posted by rbrunsman


I think you get the hull down bonus (ie only your turret can be hit and you are harder to hit) if you are at a higher elevation than the shooter and the shot is coming at your front. The caveat is that if the shooter is adjacent to you, then he can get a "bottom hit" on your AFV, which is not such a good thing. As the shooter at higher elevation, you also get the added bonus of reducing the effects of sloped armor deflections (ie greater armor penetration from your shots) and the chance of a top hit. The bottom line is: High Ground is Good. IMHO, that's how hull down is modeled in SPWAW.

As I recall (and since this is 2am right now I might be wrong for once) you also get hull down if in improved positions or entrenched and taking fire from the front. Which would be the sandbag berm sort of postion.
thanks, John.

[Irinami]

In that "other" WWII game, the 3D one, I remember reading a long topic on hull-down. Some things to consider.

1.) Hull-down will present a smaller target to enemy tankers.

2.) Tankers are trained to fire like soldiers are--at center mass of the target.

3.) Some tanks have heavier front hull armour than front turret armour, and vice-versa.

4.) Some tanks have better front hull slope than front turret slope, and vice-versa.

5.) In the end, what this means is that with some tanks, hull-down turns them into uberbunkers. Superheavy turrets with ideal sloping means any hits will probably bounce off.

6.) In the other end (ewwwwwwwwwww... ), what this means is that some tanks are sitting ducks in hull-down positions. Light or moderate armoured turrets and/or with little consideration for slope means any hit will put the vehicle out of action. A lot of these tanks are ones which would benefit more from moving fast than from a hull-down position.

What's it all mean?!?!

Know your tanks, that's what.

[AmmoSgt]

A couple of thoughts on smoothbore v rifled bore.
Rifleing in a gun can only optimally stabalize bullet weights within a certain weight range .. now days, tank, ammo is so specialized and uses such different mechanisms to defeat armor that keeping all ammo types within that range would not allow for the specialzation needed .. The other major reason is Velocity .. rifling can really eat up velocity( slow the bullet down by creating friction and converting some of the energy into spin) .. or the ultra high velocity on APFSDS type ammo would really eat up the rifling , quickly making the gun inaccurate. It is much easier technology wise to just use a smoothbore and design the ammo to use other stabilazation methods the "FS" in APFSDS stands for "fin stabilized" . As noted above spin does reduce the effectiveness of HEAT ammo by the centrifical force pulling outward on the Monroe effect jet that is the penetrator action of HEAT Ammo. HESH is not effected that much by spin as I understand the action of that warhead.. and if you notice many rifled cannons have HESH , but I don't think many smoothbores have HESH.
A long slender APFSDS round out of a 120mm smoothbore is designed to be very light( in comparison to a HE round of the same caliber) .. maybe 30 pounds , often less, so you can achieve the ultra high velocites , approaching 6000 fps to take maximum advantage of the Force= mass x velocity squared equation, pure kenetic energy does the work. With chemical energy bullets that use High Explosive to do the work on the target HEAT, HESH, HE and the like you want the maximum weight of explosive .. with a 120mm Gun you can squeeze 60-90 lbs of explosive in a bullet .. However if you tried to fire a 60-90 lb solid shot ( like APFSDS) at 6000 fps the chamber pressure would be so high that the breech and barrel would have to be so thick and strong to contain it it would be hard to fit it all in a tank weighting twice what a M-1 weighs. So .. what you do is fire really "light", in comparison, solid shot at very high speeds and chemical energy rounds that are much heavier at lower speeds .. chamber pressures stay within bounds .. and each type of ammo gets to do the job using different methods to the best advantage. And your barrel lasts longer.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Think about your annoying auntie, then think your annoying auntie wants to give you one of those dreadful smooches.

Now think while you are in a tank hehe.

If your auntie is really that bad, the cringe alone will put your tank into hull down position heheh.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Ok I was in a wierd mood and there was nothing else anywhere to post about heheh.

[Ograbme]

In a semi-related question, how big is the actual armor-piercing dart of a 120mm round?

[Voriax]

Originally posted by Ograbme
In a semi-related question, how big is the actual armor-piercing dart of a 120mm round?

Probably classified information Those darts are 2,5-3cm thick and the length/thickness ratio is about 20:1 in the current types of apfsds rounds...so 50-60cm long. Weight is 5-6 kilos for steel/tungsten penetrators.

This site has some pics/dimensions of rounds for 125mm and 100mm tank guns: http://www.prvipartizan.com/en/milapfsds.htm

Voriax