OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

[PyleDriver]

Well the RR's are western gadge now and the Germans were renown for time management. So yes the distance to railheads is a key and it is 30 miles. If I had the trucks Moscow would have been mine already... Now can I pull off the hat trick this winter, it remains to be seen....

[blam0]

What a great game.  What a great AAR!

[Flaviusx]

Smirfy, my own view is that there's no balance issue here or logistical one. PD simply is better and smarter than the AI and is manhandling it. I do not believe he'd be getting away with this kind of stuff anywhere near so easily against a human player at his level.
 
At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.
 
 

[wurger54]

At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.

Yep! [:D]

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Smirfy, my own view is that there's no balance issue here or logistical one. PD simply is better and smarter than the AI and is manhandling it. I do not believe he'd be getting away with this kind of stuff anywhere near so easily against a human player at his level.

At this point I'd like to see a human to human match between the playtesters. That will be the true test. Hard Sarge vs. PD would be a good matchup. At some point the devs need to make this happen anyways in order to test game balance. (And I suspect this game will eventually be played in large part by PBEM.) Because right now it's very easy for me to identify errors in computer play and write off problems on that score.

At this point when the developers can actually change things perhaps they will considered after going to such detail on every aspect of the game was continuous line offensives along the entire Russia front feasible for Germany? I have to say based on all the empirical evidence I'm not sure what we have dovetails with the nuances of operational warfare in the east and its evolution interesting as the AAR is.

[Flaviusx]

But it is not a continuous offensive along the entire front. A good chunk of it, 1/3 or more, is pretty quiet. And PD has been resting and rotating units throughout the game.
 
The problem here is the AI's passivity and inability to mass and use its reserves properly in those areas of the front which are active. It's spreading itself all over the front. PD is baiting it in a way that he could never do against a human, in a way that is frankly exploiting the AI's programmed responses. It's smart, but gamey as hell. I've come to the conclusion that his entire push past Voronezh, which never made sense to me on a purely strategic basis, is based on just this: he's taking advantage of the AIs inability to distinguish between what matters and what doesn't. It reacts to this diversion. A lot of his seemingly oddball pushes are in fact designed around predictable AI behavior and to elicit such responses.
 
I'm particularly gobsmacked at the AI's dispersal of forces in the south at a time when Moscow is under direct threat. I would have approximately zero mobile corps in the South against PD. Conversely, he should be fighting against all two dozen of them along the immediate Moscow front rather than the half dozen or so I see in the screenshots. Nor do I see the AI massing AT units against the panzers. (Where are all the AT units? Is it even building them? I've seen but a bare handful.)
 
Ultimately it is impossible to judge the game balance and mechanics when the AI plays so woodenly.
 
A human player I'm morally certain could do better than this. Let's put Sarge up against PD and see what happens. Then we can judge if the operational tempo of the game is too high or not.

[ComradeP]

The Germans were still fairly close to Moscow at the start of the summer 1942 campaign season, so I don't think the logistics would've been a killer if the operation had taken place in real life. It is surprising that virtually all German troops are non-static, that does seem weird as there was no way in hell the Germans could basically put all their troops in an offensive posture, with adequate supplies for an attack, for weeks.

[SGHunt]

Pieter - I understand that there are penalties for having too many units on the go at once?

And for Smirfy (is your handle from the Bash St Kids, BTW?) -  I also believe that there has been a lot of research done on the production and supply logistics, fatigue, wear and tear, mechanical breakdown (and repair) etc.  See various threads.

As for the AI vs Humie debate - there have been occassions durng this AAR (and during Elmo's) where the AI has done a pretty good job IMO, and would have presented many on this forum with some interesting challenges.   I recall Elmo's first winter was a none too pleasant for those of us who had been urging him on.

And I bet we will all take some time to learn how to beat it, as Jon certainly has learned over the long period of his play testing.    He will also learn how to beat me, I expect, if ever I pluck up the courage to PBEM.   I do know that what we have over the AI is unpredictability (but we are still predictable plenty of times!)  And we forget to do stuff and behave recklessly, or over-cautiously, blow the logistics, underestimate what's 'out there' or whatever.

And yes, a Hard Sarge Vs PD AAR would be great, especially if they play with full FOW and they post to two separate AAR threads.    Drool....  How about it boys, once Jon has captured Moscow?

And, aren't we all off topic?   Sorry...

[SGHunt]

Smirfy - 'was continuous line offensives along the entire Russia front feasible for Germany?'

No, definitely not - continuous lines  are themselves only just feasible across the whole front and only this by having the odd single regiment to 10 miles of front.  

I also think it is much more like 50% of the front that is quiet at the moment - a lot more units than that are 'activated' to be sure, but nothing like that many are on the offence.   South, below Kleist it seems about 4 divisions are committed to offensive action over some 350 miles of front.  Up North, 250 miles, with no units on the offence.   This makes a bit more than half the total front, even accounting for bulges and bends, and quite a bit more if we add the Finns.

S

[vinnie71]

BTW would the Russians have that much superiority in men and machines to be able to deploy massive formations in a head on counterattack in '42? I guess not, coz they've just come out from a disastrous year...

[PyleDriver]

Stuart thanks for watching my back... I am an expert player, one of the best 3 we have. If you play Andy, Joel or myself, you're bound to get beat. Yes I make it look easy (its not), buy the game and you post your results (if you dare)...Now can we get back to enjoying this AAR and shut the hell up on this...

[Smirfy]

NP I'll move over to Q+A

[The SNAFU]

Alpha right...

[Flaviusx]

von Jaeger, the AI is making all sorts of rookie mistakes, don't even try to defend it. It's being led around by its nose by PD. Its distribution of forces given the strategic situation borders on the asinine. PD is baiting it and making it spread itself all over the map. Quite simply, the AI doesn't know the difference between what matters and what doesn't and is being suckered into leaving Moscow underdefended. I applaud PD's cleverness, but let's understand exactly what he's doing here, he has been quite open about it in fact.
 
Put Sarge against PD. You know damn well it would be a very very different game than this.
 
 

[PyleDriver]

Guy's the AI is going alot better job now. Look at Jon's 42 posts (its on page 2) I did earlier, I crushed the AI...Ron already backed from the offer and I'm way behind getting my S&T guide ready. Guys this is still Alpha lets just enjoy the AAR...I have more stuff to send to Joel and Gary now. You guys are killing me...Instead of playing and posting (ss's) I have to respond to this crap...Please dump it on Q&A...I don't get paid to do this, so get off my back...

[roman uk]

I think Pd has the correct tactics in taking on the Soviets, encircling smaller elements, and ensuring decent exchange rates ( men 7:1, armor 4:1), however is barely breaking even in the short term, and will be swamped in the long term unless he changes the strategic balance (aka, uses the short term advantage to lessen the manufacturing advantage of the soviets).

(PD : Though the Soviet numbers seem stable (5.5 million men, have the losses you inflicted lessenned them qualitatively?)

Looking at the soviet losses they have committed huge material resources. In 42 the soviets still had poor C+C, and PD has played in a very disciplined manner. I would be interested if they did attack wholesale against the best of the Nazis, perhaps Izyum 2? I believe the argument of Moscow 42, vs stalingrad, was to force the Soviets to a head on clash when the Nazis still had a qualitative advantage.

This AAR is very entertaining. Lets see if PD takes Moscow, and see if it changes the overall equation. I for one am routing for PD (g).

[PyleDriver]

Well the quality of there new units is bad (40%). Thats why I keep hitting the and routing them. The question now is after a month of mud, how will they stand after there entrenchment...I fugure a November and December offence, after that Im going on defence...Of course if I bust it open I will run with it...

[wiking62]

Looking forward to your next screen shots Jon. I am eagerly awaiting my daily fix of your excellent AAR.
 
Steve

[PyleDriver]

(DAR) Well Steve this bone is for you... Both Kaluga and Ryazan were sacked. I have RR repair across the Oka now...I have alot of power and little time...As far as where the Soviet armor is, there in a reserve role popping there ugly heads and wearing me down...I really can't keep this up much longer, I cant burn up my armor...

[Neal_MLC]

I would really love to see a level 4 screenie. I think level 4 is what I want. I would like to see as much of the front as I can and still see unit types.