Seriously, Why are Black Holes Still Hard to Build Around?

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you tell them to build far enough from the black hole so that said radius will not intersect the black hole's edge, then you do not gain the bonus... if you tell them to build close enough, then there is a good chance of them falling in the black hole by accident...

That's ridiculous. I have never had a construction ship simply FALL in a black hole. The system size is HUGE compared to the actual size of the black hole itself. Unless you are trying to build it in a way that the station is JUST about to fall in, so as to make half the attackers who jump out of warp to try to attack your station promptly get sucked in and die, you should have no difficulty at all.

Incidentally, doing this is very funny, but no one said it had to be easy or necessary.

Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...
Happened to me, happened to him...
Now I know that its not due to distance, but due to exploration status, and that an exploration ship would take care of it.

[lordxorn]

I have wrote about this issue in my Micro AAR, if you want to check it out Here.

I have to confirm this, but before the recent patches you could select the black hole itself and see a shaded zone that is outside the even horizon, and close enough to count for a bonus.

However it seems to have been removed with the latest patches. I am trying to have this confirmed by the devs.

[Canute0]

Event horizon is the border between the black hole and the whirling thing around. It the border where the light isn't fast enough anymore to escape the star. What you mean is the accretion disk the whirling thing.

It allways happen to me.
Unexplored black hole, you can't target the black hole self, you can't see the border of the accretion disk, you dont know the "safe" area.

[lordxorn]

ORIGINAL: Canute

Event horizon is the border between the black hole and the whirling thing around. It the border where the light isn't fast enough anymore to escape the star. What you mean is the accretion disk the whirling thing.

It allways happen to me.
Unexplored black hole, you can't target the black hole self, you can't see the border of the accretion disk, you dont know the "safe" area.

Of course you have to have an exploration ship explore the system first, and if any ship get's caught in the point of no return, which is why I call it the event horizon, you can simply have the ship jump out.

[the1sean]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI can build stations around Black Holes with ease. He does it all the time. But for some reason, the AI refuses to build industry or high tech research stations for the longest time.

I dont see why by default research stations are all tech specific, I just design a generic station that techs everything and has tons of firepower and shields. Yes, I put all my eggs in one basket, but that basket can level a small fleet...

[lordxorn]

Yes this is what I do, much more cost effective.

[Astax]

I design a mega Energy research station. Although in theory you should use the tech path with cheapest techs, which might be HT, or I. That way when you are not crashing tech, you get some meaningful gains!

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI can build stations around Black Holes with ease. He does it all the time. But for some reason, the AI refuses to build industry or high tech research stations for the longest time.

I dont see why by default research stations are all tech specific, I just design a generic station that techs everything and has tons of firepower and shields. Yes, I put all my eggs in one basket, but that basket can level a small fleet...

its also a cheaper basket...

The advantage of design specific stations is it is a first layer of controller over research...
I just recently developed the following strategy:
I would decide which of the 4 tech fields I want to "focus" on... then make a station with 20 labs, and goog armament and build a couple of those VERY close to each other (so they can help each other in a fight) near a black hole... i remove ALL labs from my space ports, and I would retire (and obsolete) all other kinds of lab bases... so that way 100% of research is just weapons, or something... I can still do crash research on anything and get the full amount with no penalty to any field. But without paying i get a focused research... and when I deplete weapon research i just scuttle them all and build another kind (eventually you get all the tech you need and scuttle all of them)

[Fishman]

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...

No, this is also horse puckey. I pretty much start every single game by immediately scoping the galactic map for the nearest black hole and, without even bothering to send an exploration ship, immediately queue a construction ship to go and build the Obligatory Standard Issue Research Station there. I have never not received the bonus, because the system is explored simply when your construction ship enters the system.

[taltamir]

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: taltamir

Which goes back to the issue that the black hole does not provide the bonus unless it has been "explored"... this results in people coming to the conclusion that you must not be "close enough" to the event horizon to get the bonus, so they inch closer and closer until their ships are falling in...

No, this is also horse puckey. I pretty much start every single game by immediately scoping the galactic map for the nearest black hole and, without even bothering to send an exploration ship, immediately queue a construction ship to go and build the Obligatory Standard Issue Research Station there. I have never not received the bonus, because the system is explored simply when your construction ship enters the system.

then:
1. whomever said it needs to be explored is wrong.
2. there is some other bug or issue that causes it to sometimes not give the bonus...
I have played games where it did not give the bonus even though i built the stations extremely close to the event horizon. but in my last game I build it quite a way off and I got the bonus in full.

[randal7]

All kinds of squirrelly things happen around black holes. I had a research station disappear - and I'm positive I built it at a safe distance. I had other stations at the same hole no problem. Then, I tried to replace the mysteriously vanished station via the editor, and the editor would not place a station anywhere near the hole. I could place ships, so the editor was otherwise working. I think two constructors vanished that game at that location as well; by then I had so many I wasn't sure, and I didn't get an event notice. 

[FerretStyle]

ORIGINAL: Canute

1. Explore the black hole. On an unexplored black system hole you can't target the Black hole self.

2. Target the Black hole now. The Black hole self not the System. The targeting ring is the border where ships/stations are geting tow into the hole.

3. select your Const. ship and let it build the station 1-2 cm outside the ring you saw before.

This is good advice, but in my experience the station can be built much farther than that.

What I do to see exactly how far out I can go, is explore the thing, then move my ships out of the way (so I have no visibility on the system) and click on it. Those dashed lines will now appear in the system view and you can then see how much area you have to actually build in. It's huge. I usually build my stations halfway between the edge of the purple swirls of the black hole and where the dashed lines stop.

[Locarnus]

I also only had problems, when I first tried (right clicking on black hole, build ... here, assuming the constructors know what they are doing)
After that the strategy described above worked fine, never missed the bonus.

Kind of interesting was, that this first constructor was auto escorted by a frigate.
The frigate was still catching up when the constructor was already pulled into the singularity, so it jumped right into the purple accretion disc.
While it was kind of interesting to see the constructor being pulled in, I didnt want to lose the frigate so I tried to order it to another system. And well, after a second it jumped just out (right after adjusting for the direction).

[taltamir]

well, its got magical FTL drive so why not jump out of a black hole??

[Locarnus]

[:)] wonder if it would do so without the explicit order

physically it should be able to get away from the accretion disc even without ftl, since it is not beyond the event horizon
tempting to try to lure some alien fleet there, chasing after me and then jump out.
maybe the next time i attack an alien research lab wait for the relief forces to play with them [:D]

[jscott991]

It should be easy!

The AI has no problem building these stations without my input; it is just slow to build research stations if left on auto.

I would wager that if you told 100 DW players to try to build a research base near a black hole manually, 75 or more would have their ship sucked to its death or fail to get the bonus. I would bet that percentage would be unchanged even if the AI had already built a station near it to show you approximately where to build.

The ships come out of hyperspace incompetently, they move at sublight speeds to their build location incompetently, and the bonus radius, at least to me, isn't easy to spot.

[Locarnus]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

ORIGINAL: Fishman

ORIGINAL: taltamir

if you tell them to build far enough from the black hole so that said radius will not intersect the black hole's edge, then you do not gain the bonus... if you tell them to build close enough, then there is a good chance of them falling in the black hole by accident...

That's ridiculous. I have never had a construction ship simply FALL in a black hole. The system size is HUGE compared to the actual size of the black hole itself. Unless you are trying to build it in a way that the station is JUST about to fall in, so as to make half the attackers who jump out of warp to try to attack your station promptly get sucked in and die, you should have no difficulty at all.

Incidentally, doing this is very funny, but no one said it had to be easy or necessary.

It should be easy!

The AI has no problem building these stations without my input; it is just slow to build research stations if left on auto.

I would wager that if you told 100 DW players to try to build a research base near a black hole manually, 75 or more would have their ship sucked to its death or fail to get the bonus. I would bet that percentage would be unchanged even if the AI had already built a station near it to show you approximately where to build.

The ships come out of hyperspace incompetently, they move at sublight speeds to their build location incompetently, and the bonus radius, at least to me, isn't easy to spot.

hm, btw can you put labs on a ship?
would not be too efficient, with all the propulsion.
but at least i would have the ability to refit.
and warp away in case of an attack, so less weapons required, or none

have to try this next time

[Astax]

Yeah that be neat to have tech ships. Kinda how most of Federation ships are science vessels.

[taltamir]

ooooh... we need to test it...
ship labs would be win!

[Dadekster]

I think the idea is cool as well, but I think it would be unneeded fluff tbh. What would they do that isn't already handled better in game? I can't see a reason you would need one other than it is mobile....but that sort of takes away it being useful around a blackhole which requires being near it. Think some major rewrites of code would be needed? Don't get me wrong, I think science vessels are neat, but they just don't seem to fit into a game like this.