Not Ready For Prime Time

[Anraz]

ORIGINAL: MajFrankBurns

No wait I can spel beter than Kavery pik me pik me!!

[Texican]

I have said before and will say again, foreign game companies (really ANY game companies) should pay $5,000 to a U.S. English major to go through the spelling and grammer of both the game and any rules manual.

This would be well worth the value, I think.

[Erik Rutins]

FWIW, Wasteland had a native English speaker review the in-game text and we also had an editor on our side review and work on the manual before release. Obviously some things were missed, but we did try to make sure that there were no major text issues.

[SlickWilhelm]

Speaking as an IT professional type, I've often noticed how geeks tend to assume way too much when they document, whether it be tutorials or instructions on how to install and configure a piece of software. People who work with technology everyday forget that there are a lot of people out there who don't know how to copy files between folders(as just one simple example).

The best documentation technique IMO is using lots of pics with helper text and symbols actually drawn on the pics.

[MajFrankBurns]

How do you copy files between folders Slick? I've always used the copy/paste method?

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

FWIW, Wasteland had a native English speaker review the in-game text and we also had an editor on our side review and work on the manual before release. Obviously some things were missed, but we did try to make sure that there were no major text issues.

See, thats your problem..You chose a native English speaker. Every one and thier grandmother knows Americans can't spell and ennunciate worth ****[:D][:D][:D] .... Thats a fact of life, just like most cant comprehend basic directions and diction.[:D][:D]..I'd love to help but I hate taking directions from any sort of authority and also do not fit your criteria of being a native English speaker, being one of them "dammed furriners"....

And dont get me started on editors....hehehehe

[Tomokatu]

Maj Frank Burns (hell of a choice there!) responded:

I go back to gaming on a cardboard map so I certainly understand the need to read the manual first. Sometimes I will buy a game an especially if it has a large manual spend the entire first day just reading the manual. You'll be surprised how well you can play the game then when you do play it later that day or next day. It's not like the game is going to get up and run away immediately after you bought it. Slow down live a little you'll be less frustrated if you take things slower in life.

 
Hear Hear!
Well said.
Good advice [8D]

[Tomokatu]

Texican claimed

I have said before and will say again, foreign game companies (really ANY game companies) should pay $5,000 to a U.S. English major ... 

And another $5000 to a native English speaker (reader and writer) to correct from US spelling and grammar to that used in the REST of the English-speaking world.

[Tomokatu]

apathetic lurker stuttered:

Every one and thier grandmother

(Emphasis added)  Case in point!

[henri51]

It is well known among professional programmers that debugging and documentation requires a lot more tie than writing the program.

And don't forget that documentation correcting requires not only making the English better, but making sure that the information is correct and clear. But I agree that reviewing only the English as a final operation is worthwhile.

Another thing well known among professional writers is that writing a text requires at least six revisions. But as one who has written over 200 papers and some books, I rarely have done more than 2 or 3 revisions (but I am not a professional writer...).[8|]

One negative aspect of word processors is that it is so easy to format and spell-check that inexperienced writers tend to write a first draft, format it, check the spelling, and that is it. I have received Ph. D. theses for evaluation that had over 10 mistakes on the first page (...and back they go without my looking at page 2!).

Henri

[spelk]

The problem I'm having with the tutorial is that it only takes one slight misunderstanding and the tutorial becomes stalled, so you have quit and start it up again, and attempt to guess at what is being said to you. Also having the tutorial move on after an End Turn action, means that you are almost waiting in anticipation to see if what you tried to do worked, so that the tutorial info box pops up after you press the magical End Turn button.

Its a bit of a flaky way to deliver tutorial content to be honest. The first information the user is presented with, is how to begin the tutorial they have to press End Turn. Doesn't seem to flow with the natural way of being tutored.

I've come a cropper at about the same point as tgb, in that I try to make an attack with two units at once, and I must've clicked the wrong thing in the sequence expected, because the enemy unit disappeared and the End Turn button didn't result in any more tutorial information.

My advice would be to get someone with English as their native language and make a video showing the user what has to be done to perform certain actions, like attacking with two units. Then release those as additional support for the game. It raise the complete newbies up to a level of competancy and familiarisation with your UI.

Trying to help here, rather than slate the game.. I really haven't got far enough into the game to make a judgement on it, but if the beginners tutorial is leaving me stranded in a scenario, not knowing what next to do, perhaps it needs some tweaking?

[doomtrader]

What about several short videos (like 20-30 seconds), presenting individual steps from tutorial or other game features?
I think it would be clear and easy enough to reproduce for everybody, also it should avoid watching few minutes just to find one interesting option.

It's already 1:00 AM here and we really need some sleep from time to time, so what would you say if we will start since tomorrow?
In the meantime you could post what causes you most problems and we will start with that.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Texican

I have said before and will say again, foreign game companies (really ANY game companies) should pay $5,000 to a U.S. English major to go through the spelling and grammer of both the game and any rules manual.

This would be well worth the value, I think.

I'd do it for a free copy and my name in lights...So would a few others here, I daresay...

[Rosseau]

I have to agree with Spelk on the tutorial. I had three "stalls" and gave up. Maybe I should have saved the game!
I wanted to get a better handle on naval movement. I read the manual too, but it is just very confusing to me. I sort of wish they just made it hex-by-hex instead of all the boxes and convoluted stuff.

I have all three games in the series, but a newcomer is not going to be too happy, imo.

Now for the positive:
--Love the new Pacific focus
--Love the ground combat and info boxes, and the naval combat is nice, despite my not understanding it yet
--Modding my butt off. The new Editor is not self-explanatory, but who needs it? Just do some xml work.
--Best of all, Wasteland is AWESOME when it comes to support and patches.

I am happy with my $50 investment, despite some issues.

[Phatguy]

ORIGINAL: Tomokatu

apathetic lurker stuttered:

Every one and thier grandmother

(Emphasis added)  Case in point!

I am a foreigner...I still spell better than 90 percent of native born Americans, and as far as I remember, I before E except after C..Or have things changed in the years since I left the cozy confines of my collidge edumication?

I know there are exceptions to the whole I,E and C thing but don't expect me to remember over 20 years ago without using cheat sheets or crib notes.

[Razz1]

OK OK it is very simple..

To move a ship or fleet click on the Circle.

Amenu pops up.

Choose the fleet or individual ship.

Click move.

ZOOM OUT, please.

any circle you see is where you can go.

All ships move two.

Pretty easy.. Count 1,2

plan count 1 2

Remember a Port is a circle, so that is one move.

If your in a port, 1 to sea, 1 to adjacant see.

If in a sea, move to port in sea zone, or move one sea zone and then into a port.

OR if in a sea, move two sea zones.

EXCEPTION

Did you read the manual?

Hint: Ships can only enter certain size ports.

Check the manual.

[spelk]

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
What about several short videos (like 20-30 seconds), presenting individual steps from tutorial or other game features?
I think it would be clear and easy enough to reproduce for everybody, also it should avoid watching few minutes just to find one interesting option.

That sounds ideal to me. Give a step by step, blow by blow account of how to control the game in a visual format thats not too time and labour intensive to produce. Hopefully they could ease a lot of newcomers into the game better than the current slightly fastidious tutorial does.

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
In the meantime you could post what causes you most problems and we will start with that.

My problem is that the tutorial doesn't really explain the basic mechanisms for troop manipulation, movement and attacking etc. It seems to stumble and fumble a bit on just getting the pure mechanics over. I've got Time of Wrath, but haven't played it to any great extent, so I'm coming at SoP more or less completely fresh. I'll obviously set aside some time to look through the manual, but as players fire the game up in excitement, the precarious wall that is the current tutorial is more of a hindrance than a help to getting to know the game. As tgb said, first impressions count.

[Tomokatu]

apathetic lurker protested:

as far as I remember, I before E except after C.

 
Aha!
I see the problem. Somebody[:-] has taught you only PART of the mnemonic.
The whole chant goes "Where the dipthong says "ee", it's i before e except after c". You should be OK from here on.[:)]

[Rosseau]

Thanks for the tutorial, Razz! I knew about the port limits, but needed that step-by-step that the manual does not provide. (It should).

thanks again

[Henri]

I bought the game last night and started the tutorial before playing a bit with the campaign. This has to be one of the poorest tutorials I have seen. A bad sign is that the tutorial begins by telling you to read the manual first....[:-]

I did not read the manual first, and I shouldn't have to to for the tutorial. Then the tutorial early on tells me to do a number of separate things: click on the cans, buy two units, click on the tank, deploy one unit; OK, so I click on the screen and it disappears so I can follow the orders. There is no way to get this screen back!It say is if you get confused, to restart the tutorial...[:-]

So I click on the cans and buy one infantry unit. Hmmmm...now what was the other unit I was supposed to buy? No way to find out so I buy an armored unit (it was supposed to be an infantry corps). Now I remember that it said to click on the tank icon, so I do, and a screen appears. I manage to find the list of units that I bought, and I see a "deploy" button at the bottom, so I press that. Oops...now where did it way to deploy the unit? Darn bad memory...[:-]. I deploy it to a city at random which happens to be the correct one, click the next turn button and the next orders screen appears.

It says to select my infantry then to press the "attack" button. There is no such button on the screen and I have no clue where the hell it is. It is under the "units" icon, but the tutorial does not say that. Is it so difficult to write "Open the unit icon on the top right (one of the 4 buttons there with stars) and press the "attack" button which is the third from the top on tghe right"? [:-]

After resarting the tutorial a number of times after getting lost, I finally make it to the invasion part, but after transp[orting my troops to invade an enemy city, I am unable to get any orders screen. Is the scenario finished? Did I do something wrong? Did I forget something? I have no Idea, but that was enough for me.

I didn't buy Time of Wrath after trying the demo because there was no order of battle and I could find no way to figure out which units I had and where they were, but this game looks a lot better. Let's hope the tutorial is not an indication of the quality of the game.

Henri