OT- Sort of; National Treasure in Danger

[Big B]

I was reading navsource.org, and came across this article and warning.
Admiral Dewey's Flagship, the Cruiser Olympia of SpanAm War fame, is close to being demolished due to lack of funds from the maritime museum. It seems the US Navy doesn't fund her like they do (at least I think they do) the USS Constitution.

http://sundaygazettemail.com/Life/Travel/201005270677

Can it really be true? Would the US Government sanction sinking her and making her a reef? $20,000,000 is a lot to you and me, but that's fractions of a penny to the US Navy/Government - Budget.

I just can't believe our history could be that cheep - Oliver Wendell Holmes...where are you?

[vettim89]

USS Constitution is still a commissioned USN ship. That makes a big difference. All the museum ships are in charitable trusts names now (Massachusettes, Alabama, Intrepid, etc)

[wworld7]

To really discuss this issue you need to get into a political discussion of budget priorities (Any side you take).

And that is not allowed by Matrix in any thread.

[wdolson]

The deal the Navy has with these organizations is that they take care of the ships in their care, or the Navy will take them back and do what they want with them.  It's not a political issue.  The government has made it clear they will not maintain them. 

There are a number of WW II aircraft in private hands that are still owned by the military too.  The USAF "activated" the Memphis Belle a couple of years back so they could put it in a USAF museum.

The Olympia should be taken out of the water altogether and put in permanent dry dock like the HMS Victory.

Bill

[SuluSea]

Not suprised at all.

[oldman45]

I thought I had read some where that they built a concrete cofferdam for the hull.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Big B

I was reading navsource.org, and came across this article and warning.
Admiral Dewey's Flagship, the Cruiser Olympia of SpanAm War fame, is close to being demolished due to lack of funds from the maritime museum. It seems the US Navy doesn't fund her like they do (at least I think they do) the USS Constitution.

http://sundaygazettemail.com/Life/Travel/201005270677

Can it really be true? Would the US Government sanction sinking her and making her a reef? $20,000,000 is a lot to you and me, but that's fractions of a penny to the US Navy/Government - Budget.

I just can't believe our history could be that cheep - Oliver Wendell Holmes...where are you?

would be interesting what the engagement in Iraq or Afghanistan costs per day in comparison to saving such a ship.

[The Gnome]

I live about 2 blocks from Olympia. She's been a fixture on the riverfront for as long as I can remember. Being that close even I didn't know how in danger she is. It won't be a happy day if she goes.

Unfortunately, the Seaport Museum that owns her has been worse than a shipwreck as far as management. They have lived from one financial scandal to another, and it's sad that Olympia was entrusted to such incompetence.

[The Gnome]

Well private money was used to save another ship on the Philadelphia Riverfront, the SS United States:
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20 ... tates.html

Hopefully, we can get some history minded individuals together to help save the Olympia. Just posted to the neighborhood boards to see if others are as shocked as I am:
http://www.philadelphiaspeaks.com/forum ... -sunk.html

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: wdolson


The Olympia should be taken out of the water altogether and put in permanent dry dock like the HMS Victory.

Bill

agreed. USS Texas as the same problem. I visited the ship shortly after it's major refit in 1999. Even after the tremendous effort put into her restoration one still could see plenty of indicators of the ship's great age. These old vessels need to be placed in permanent drydock facilities (no mudbeds....no water) if they are to survive well into this next century. HMS Victory is in incredible shape given her age, as is HMS Warrior (the latter despite being alfoat...though her iron hull makes her more resistant to the elements)

[John Lansford]

The USS Yorktown down at Charleston runs the same risk as Olympia; the Navy wants the Maritime Museum there to perform some needed hull work on the carrier, but they're having trouble raising the money.  When I was there last October they were cautiously optimistic they'd be able to raise the funds through donations, state funds and perhaps corporate sponsorship, but I've not heard of anything since then.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

would be interesting what the engagement in Iraq or Afghanistan costs per day in comparison to saving such a ship.

I think Afghanistan is running about $9 billion per month.

A July 4th poll by Marist College (name from memory) on Americans' history knowledge illustrates why ships like this won't be saved. About 25% of Americans, and almost 50% of those under 30, did not know from whom we gained our independence. IOW, they didn't know why the 4th of July is a national holiday. It's just a day to grill meat and go to the beach to them. Guesses included Germany and Japan.

Seven percent of those polled could name the first four US presidents in order. (And two of them are on Mt. Rushmore.)

[The Gnome]

The collapse in quality of secondary education in the US over the last 30 years is breathtaking. Couple that with the phony-boloney 4-year degrees our universities are handing out and you have a bubble that will make the real estate market blush. And it doesn't contain itself to the subject of history.

Case in point, I own a small software shop. I need to hire 4 junior level programmers. Finding one that is remotely competent is a monumental exercise, and I am not alone. My brother is a senior engineer for google. They go through 2-5 thousand qualified (ie pre-screened) candidates to find ONE.

Compare that to the number of kids obtaining CS degrees on a yearly basis and you start to get the picture.

We actually just had to fire someone who had an MS in Computer Science. She couldn't write a functional program. We moved her on to writing test plans. The result? She ended up posting proprietary code - entire class objects - asking "How do you write tests for this?"

Ouch. Thank goodness we were able to get the message board admins to take it down and have Google de-index it.

Our educational system needs a total overhaul from stem to stern. As far as secondary ed and lower, we're currently running a model originally designed by the Prussians in the 18th century. It was modified by us to churn out diligent factory workers: Sit in a row, quietly and obediently do your work. Leave when the bell rings.

Anyway, sorry for the derailment. Education is a subject near and dear to my heart - and I'm a college DROPOUT!

[pmelheck1]

Jay Leno did a bit asking people very basic questions about the forth of July.  Scary stuff what some folks answered.  Most folks didn't know why we celebrate the forth.  Most didn't know from whom we were independent.  Most didn't know the year - A collage professor answered we got or independence in 1922.  Why would people want to save American history when their not taught it anymore or taught to be ashamed of it.  Every time my son comes home and talks of his history classes I get mad.  He's taught what a hindrance the U.S. is to setting up the socialist workers paradise and how we must all be ashamed.  These great ships will never be safe as the people that will need to care for them are being taught that their a symbol of all that is evil in America. 

[Alekks]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: castor troy

would be interesting what the engagement in Iraq or Afghanistan costs per day in comparison to saving such a ship.

I think Afghanistan is running about $9 billion per month.

A July 4th poll by Marist College (name from memory) on Americans' history knowledge illustrates why ships like this won't be saved. About 25% of Americans, and almost 50% of those under 30, did not know from whom we gained our independence. IOW, they didn't know why the 4th of July is a national holiday. It's just a day to grill meat and go to the beach to them. Guesses included Germany and Japan.

Seven percent of those polled could name the first four US presidents in order. (And two of them are on Mt. Rushmore.)

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if an even smaller percentage could name the state where Mt Rushmore is located.

I have seen instances where a high school class, looking at the outline of the 50 US States, less than 50% of the students could locate Wyoming. This included such hints as

1] It's west of the Mississippi River
2] It shaped roughly like a square/rectangle
3] It's located in the Mountain Time Zone

Even worse, this was a Geography class.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

The collapse in quality of secondary education in the US over the last 30 years is breathtaking. Couple that with the phony-boloney 4-year degrees our universities are handing out and you have a bubble that will make the real estate market blush. And it doesn't contain itself to the subject of history.

Ouch. Thank goodness we were able to get the message board admins to take it down and have Google de-index it.

Our educational system needs a total overhaul from stem to stern. As far as secondary ed and lower, we're currently running a model originally designed by the Prussians in the 18th century. It was modified by us to churn out diligent factory workers: Sit in a row, quietly and obediently do your work. Leave when the bell rings.

Anyway, sorry for the derailment. Education is a subject near and dear to my heart - and I'm a college DROPOUT!

Heh. I've graduated from four colleges, and I agree with you (mostly.)

My big bro has been in IT since 1974. He started on card-read mainframes with 32k of RAM. I know at one point in the late 70s he was fully conversant in over 30 programming languages (Who recalls ALGOL? SNOBOL? The many flavors of Pascal?) He moved into management, out of management, into deep-level design (TCP stack optimization, mission critical OSes and deeper), then got out and went into patent work as things moved offshore. Through all that one thing never changed: "These kids today" weren't as good as the old kids. They couldn't flowchart. They didn't plan (with gigs of RAM why plan? Just complile the darn thing and see if it works!) Generally new programers were weak on syntax (error checking compilers), but VERY weak on big picture. WHAT is this program supposed to do? For how long? Who will use the output? All that migrated to analysts and away from the code monkeys, and they let it.

My GF has been a public school teacher for almost thirty years now. Middle school. The family problems she sees are massive compared to 1980. Fetal alchohol syndrome. Huge over-dosing (mostly boys) with psychoactive drugs to make them docile. At least 50% of kids with one or even half of one parent. Middle school kids taking care of sibs so Mom can work all night. Etc. And this in a middle- to upper-middle-class district.

But even with that, the biggest problem she sees is that kids are passive. There's no consequence for not trying or not succeeding. Nobody gets left back. They teach to the standarized tests. And kids who don't "get it" right away just quit and wait for help. There's no hunger to learn. To figure out a way around the roadblock. There's no common sense ("If you got an answer telling you the shoes would cost $900, does that seem right to you? No? Then why did you leave it?" Kid: "I dunno.")

When I was in public schools in the 1960s and 70s we took History. Now, it's Social Studies. So there's little suprise that kids don't know history.

Final rant: When I was in school, and got paddled (yes, actual pain), when I got home my father wanted to know what I'd done to deserve it. Now, parents lawyer up if their kid isn't "respected." The schools only have them 6 hours a day, 180 days a year. "Parenting" (I hate that word but there it is) needs to change too.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

The collapse in quality of secondary education in the US over the last 30 years is breathtaking. Couple that with the phony-boloney 4-year degrees our universities are handing out and you have a bubble that will make the real estate market blush. And it doesn't contain itself to the subject of history.

Case in point, I own a small software shop. I need to hire 4 junior level programmers. Finding one that is remotely competent is a monumental exercise, and I am not alone. My brother is a senior engineer for google. They go through 2-5 thousand qualified (ie pre-screened) candidates to find ONE.

Compare that to the number of kids obtaining CS degrees on a yearly basis and you start to get the picture.

We actually just had to fire someone who had an MS in Computer Science. She couldn't write a functional program. We moved her on to writing test plans. The result? She ended up posting proprietary code - entire class objects - asking "How do you write tests for this?"

Ouch. Thank goodness we were able to get the message board admins to take it down and have Google de-index it.

Our educational system needs a total overhaul from stem to stern. As far as secondary ed and lower, we're currently running a model originally designed by the Prussians in the 18th century. It was modified by us to churn out diligent factory workers: Sit in a row, quietly and obediently do your work. Leave when the bell rings.

Anyway, sorry for the derailment. Education is a subject near and dear to my heart - and I'm a college DROPOUT!

This has not been my experience over the last ten years. I hire employees in many nations--the skill set and productivity of young American workers is exceptional. They are less willing to work 60 hour (or even 40 hour) workweeks, but they get an amazing amount done. Most productive workforce in the world. Knowledge of history is weak, but I find that all over the world too. Mathematics remains a relative weakness to other primary education systems, but the utility of calculus in most peoples lives is very limited.

Expectation management is an issue--they want to work 32 hrs per week and get paid like their fathers who put in 60+. However, this is manageable.

Employment At Will doctrine in the U.S. makes assembling a high quality workforce dead easy compared to other countries.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Alekks


Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if an even smaller percentage could name the state where Mt Rushmore is located.

Sure, it's in the state of Dakota, right?[:)]

That's like that state my Minnesota neighbors are sure is "down there" somewhere: Carolina. ("What? There are two? How can there be two?")[:)]

[The Gnome]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace


This has not been my experience over the last ten years. I hire employees in many nations--the skill set and productivity of young American workers is exceptional. They are less willing to work 60 hour (or even 40 hour) workweeks, but they get an amazing amount done. Most productive workforce in the world. Knowledge of history is weak, but I find that all over the world too. Mathematics remains a relative weakness to other primary education systems, but the utility of calculus in most peoples lives is very limited.

Expectation management is an issue--they want to work 32 hrs per week and get paid like their fathers who put in 60+. However, this is manageable.

Employment At Will doctrine in the U.S. makes assembling a high quality workforce dead easy compared to other countries.

Love at will employment, and agree this is WAY simpler than doing it overseas. For the time being we still have the most efficient allocation/de-allocation of capital in the world. There is however a serious lack of skills, passion, and dedication in recent grads. This is especially true if you get out of legacy skill sets and expect at least a rudimentary knowledge of modern workflows and tools.

You'd think they never heard of source control in the universities.

[Don D]

I was by chance on the Olympia last Saturday.  We went down to Penn's Landing to take a tour of DD Bulkeley, and since Bulkeley was a little late arriving we toured Olympia and SS Becuna which are permanently tied up there.

I hate to put in an ill word, but Olympia is a rather poor museum.  The woodwork in the ship is impressive, especially in the officer's quarters and meeting rooms.  That was neat to see especially after seeing the rather spartan accommodations of the Becuna.  Beyond that, though, there's not much to tell you what you're looking at.  There's all sorts of hoists and lifts and chains going down through the decks, but no signs to tell you what they are or how they were used or why they were important.  The ships guns are still there, but very little information about them.  It's too bad, because it should be an informative tour, especially since I know relatively little about the Spanish-American war.  They did fire a few blanks out of the 6-lbers on deck as a salute to the Bulkeley on her way up the Delaware.  When the guy 20 feet away yells "Fire in the Hole!", he's not joking!  [X(]

Onboard the Becuna we got a 15 minute lecture on torpedoes from a former submariner.  He explained how the gyros aimed it, how the propulsion mechanism worked, and why so many of them were faulty.  That was cool.