Harpoon 3 updatable to H3 ANW?

[Akmatov]

I have an older copy of H3 I bought from Spears a while ago. Is it possible to update it?

[hermanhum]

You are one lucky guy to own a copy of H3.  [:)]

However, it is not possible to update H3 to ANW.

Don't forget to grab the PlayersDB patch for H3:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

[uncleharpoon]

I wish to clarify that Mr. Hum's "Patch" is a patch for the database he supports. It is NOT a Patch for Harpoon 3 ANW.

Only Matrix/AGSI will post patches to our product.

[hermanhum]

I wish to clarify that the PlayersDB patch will actually reduce the number of problems a user might encounter in H3 and ANW.

[Spearfish]

I have just purchased Harpoon 3 ANW and I am waiting impatiently for Ultimate Edition release. However after reading this forum I am confused that probably the most frequent poster here - hermanhum - claims all the time Harpoon 3 ANW is vastly unplayable with hundreds of bugs on his buglist and offers some self made patches like "PlayersDB patch" and "Library patch" - additionally also for some ten years old Harpoon 3 legacy version. As I noticed Harpoon 3 ANW comes with three different databases, so they are all buggy?

What the heck is going on??? Can Matrix or AGSI staff clarify this situation to me? Is this some independent players bugfixing process aside of developer's improvement activity or what? Are they compatible each other? Why not to merge both bugfixings? What Harpoon versions are supported today? [&:]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL:  Spearfish

I have just purchased Harpoon 3 ANW and I am waiting impatiently for Ultimate Edition release. However after reading this forum I am confused that probably the most frequent poster here - hermanhum - claims all the time Harpoon 3 ANW is vastly unplayable with hundreds of bugs on his bug list and offers some self made patches like "PlayersDB patch" and "Library patch" - additionally also for some ten years old Harpoon 3 legacy version. As I noticed Harpoon 3 ANW comes with three different databases, so they are all buggy?

I am not a representative of either Matrix or AGSI, but I will try give you a user's perspective on the problems with ANW with specific examples.

The game currently has hundreds of problems as detailed in the List of * Known Harpoon ANW Issues.  Some of those problems are major game killers such as:

[url=http://tinyurl.com/6bwwbj][color=DarkRed][b]ASW/WH torps tracking wrong targets[/b][/color][/url] [ul]WH/ASW torps tracking targets they cannot hit.

Missiles not releasing

Missiles not releasing even though they are assigned in Weapons allocation window [Originally reported by KlubMarcus].

Submarine evades own torpedoes

Submarine evades her own wake-homing torpedoes after firing.  This does not occur with wire-guided torpedoes.

[/ul]while others are less severe.  There are also bugs such as:

[color=DarkRed][b]Weapon never hits in 394 II[/b][/color] [ul]Weapons that hit in 3.9.3 will never hit target in 3.9.4 (Originally reported by Juramentado)

[/ul]that only occur in databases distributed by AGSI.  This bug is a specific database bug because the PlayersDB has already implemented a work-around solution to this problem.  The solution is not rocket science nor exclusive to anyone.  However, only the PlayersDB has introduced it at this time.  Therefore, only the PlayersDB is currently free of this problem.  

ORIGINAL:  Spearfish

Is this some independent players bugfixing process aside of developer's improvement activity or what? Are they compatible each other? Why not to merge both bugfixings? What Harpoon versions are supported today? [&:]

The PlayersDB is an independent attempt to alleviate as many of the problems as possible through means available to users so that some use could be gotten from the game.   Thus, it works as an unofficial patch by reducing game problems (besides giving the player a lot more platforms to use).  Unfortunately, most of the problems are code problems so no user-made solutions are possible.  It is significant to note that many of the problems included in the list of * Known Harpoon ANW Issues simply do not appear in the older H3 version of the game.  Sadly, and amazingly enough, every new version manages to include new bugs while at the same time squashing old ones.  [:(]

[uncleharpoon]

Howdy Spearfish,

Version 3.9.4 of the H3 ANW products is pretty stable.

However, there are some who disagree with our :
1. Classification of behavior as defects or features
2. Our prioritization for addressing defects
3. How the simulation should play or how weapons/sensors and platforms should perform.

Because we allow players to create their own content, those players are free to customize things the way they see fit, however AGSI and Matrix do not support custom databases. We support ANWDB and HUD3 databases and if a defect is found in their data (or the simulations behavior using those databases) we'll investigate, triage, and then take the appropriate action.

The problem has been that some of our players are so... invested... in their work and have so much time available that a newcomer may be confused or turned off on our products. Of course if that is allowed to continue....

***

EVERYONE is invited to report issues using one of the two official databases, then send us:
1. Screen shots
2. The scenario
3. A description of the behavior and the expected behavior.

We have recently replaced our QC assistant who will take the issue and work with the reporter in an attempt to reproduce the issue. If he confirms it is a defect, then it will be logged and prioritized.

I wish I had a team of programmers and QC staff but this product appeals to such a small part of the market (the really intelligent part!) that it simply has to rely on the community to work with us on adding features and improving quality. That means working with a few simple rules and moving forward.

Thanks for writing!

[Spearfish]

Many thanks for explanations of current situation!

As I understand game developer and modding folks from the community cannot agree if some game behaviors are realistic or not. I think the part of this problem is fact that detailed data about modern weapon and tactics are top-secret and all we can do is simply guessing without much verification ability who is right. So each side put what it thinks is realistic into their own databases. Well, nothing can be done here...

As for bugs I think that simplest way to solve some problems/bugs is to logically check basic data. For instance I have already looked at AALogs files after playing some scenarios with HUD3 database. I have found that AGM-84C Harpoon missile has "VSmall target" flag enabled while in real life being smaller AGM-88 HARM missile doesn't. Such small flaws can ruin calculations of Pk especially SAMs have quite high Pk values (80-95% range) it this database.

Anyway, as I read AGSI statement, in a month Ultimate Edition will be released with much improved ANW 3.10 and plethora of legacy Harpoon versions with auxiliary stuff (editors etc.) which bundle I will certainly buy due to large discount for ANW owners. Then I will be able to see those mythical differences between various Harpoon incarnations...in the meantime I try community databases like PlayersDB and others - how they work under ANW game. [:D]

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL:  uncleharpoon

EVERYONE is invited to report issues using one of the two official databases, then send us:
1. Screen shots
2. The scenario
3. A description of the behavior and the expected behavior.

Unfortunately, that same procedure was already tried and failed three years ago.  Here is a partial list of the bugs that were reported with ANWDB and never resolved.  Oh well, maybe this time there will be a better outcome.

• Altitude mis-match between Group and units
  
  Units and Group icons show different altitude values in SE.
• ASW/WH torps tracking wrong targets
  
  WH/ASW torps tracking targets they cannot hit.
• Fighters hanging on refPt
  
  Fighters will launch and hang on one Ref point.
• Submarine evades own torpedoes
  
  Submarine evades her own wake-homing torpedoes after firing.  This does not occur with wire-guided torpedoes.
• TALD materialize at wrong point
  
  When firing lots of missiles i.e. TALD, the missiles all originate from the same point even when the plane moves away.

ORIGINAL:  Spearfish

As I understand game developer and modding folks from the community cannot agree if some game behaviors are realistic or not.

I did not think that CTDs were a matter of opinion.  However, your mileage may vary.  [:D]

Welcome aboard, shipmate.  Let me know if you want a game of MP, sometime.  [8D]

[uncleharpoon]

Thank you

I will have our new QC resource start looking at these, seeing if they had been previously reported,and most importantly, if they exist in 3.10.

I will remind everyone that a bad database entry can cause all sorts of behavior, hence our requirement to nail down one set of infinite variables - the database.

[Spearfish]

However I am not sure how Harpoon 3 ANW calculates final Pk values (missile vs missile in this example) because I noticed some ATA entries which differs for each weapon. For example:

Weapon Grumble [Favorit/48NE62] is resolving its attack against Harpoon ID            |
Attacking a missile with base pK: 90%
Missile has defensive ATA of 2.5
>Capable Weapon vs Seaskimmer : +1.0
>VSmall Target : +1.0

Final pH: 65%

It essentially means that: Final Pk = Base Pk - ATA*10 [%] (90-25=65% in this particular example) but "VSmall Target" and "Capable Weapon vs Seaskimmer" +1.0 values are ignored...in this particular example I suppose VSmall target should be greater than 1.0 to decrease final Pk even more. Yet maybe this decreasing is already set properly by defensive ATA value alone because Pk=65% seems OK for 48N6 missile engaging subsonic sea-skimmers. All depends how DB creator used program algorithms to get realistic values (choosing larger D-ATA values or using penalty flags in calculations). [&:]

[Spearfish]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

Welcome aboard, shipmate.  Let me know if you want a game of MP, sometime.  [8D]

I think about it but now I must introduce myself into Harpoon 3 ANW in singleplayer. BTW I downloaded PlayersDB together with new database images. Yet I do not know how to enable those images on ANW?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

I think about it but now I must introduce myself into Harpoon 3 ANW in singleplayer. BTW I downloaded PlayersDB together with new database images. Yet I do not know how to enable those images on ANW?

Just run the installer in the same manner and point to the same ANW folder in which you ran the PlayersDB installer.

[Spearfish]

So finally Pics folder should be placed inside PlayersDB folded or inside Resource folder?

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: Spearfish

So finally Pics folder should be placed inside PlayersDB folded?

Yes. It should reside in the PlayersDB folder alongside the Scenarios and Text sub-folders.

[hermanhum]

ORIGINAL: uncleharpoon

I will remind everyone that a bad database entry can cause all sorts of behavior, hence our requirement to nail down one set of infinite variables - the database.

Herein lies a major problem. You demand that reports be made with a database that is inherently buggy. As stated previously, the databases distributed by AGSI are all afflicted with this same bug:

[link=http://tinyurl.com/ad8wrz][color=DarkRed][b]Weapon never hits in 394 II [/b][/color][/link] [ul]Weapons that hit in 3.9.3 will never hit target in 3.9.4 (Originally reported by Juramentado)

[/ul]In fact, the ANWDB has this bug recurring several times affecting many weapons systems including:
[blockquote]Nodong-1
Nodong-2
Taepodong-1
Taepodong-2
Have Nap [Popeye 1]
ARMAT
Kingfish
DF-21
DF-21 Nuclear
[Kickback] CALCM
Burya [Kitchen] ARM
[Kelt] [N]
[Kelt] Radar
[Kelt] ARM
Loitering Attack Missile
Precision Attack Missile[/blockquote]Therefore, anyone playing or testing a scenario with any of these weapons will not observe a correct result and would likely report a false/mis-leading positive. Using a buggy database to report a bug is simply non-productive.

[Spearfish]

In game I can only see stock images from AGSI, not those which come with PlayersDB (B&W pics with unit graphical scheme on the blue background)...

[hermanhum]

Please start up your game and make sure that the PlayersDB is selected in the Database Manager tab of your launcher.

Once started, load up any PlayersDB scenario and then hit the Database function. Select the ship "AE Butte USN 68". This is the image that I see. If you see something different, please take a screenshot of it and post it up here.

The hotkey for ScreenShot Alt+F1. The screenshot will appear as a *.PCX file in the Screenshots sub-folder of your ANW folder. If you can, convert the *.PCX file to *.GIF or *.JPG format and post it as an attachment to this thread. If you do not know how to convert the file from *.PCX to *.GIF or *.JPG, then place it in a *.zip file and post it as an attachment to this thread:

tm.asp?m=1904270

[hermanhum]

I will make it easier for you. Do you see the previous image or this one when you select the "AE Butte USN 68"?

[Spearfish]

Unfortunately I see only this second color image. Aside of that everything looks properly installed.