Unit Exp: campaigns

[GlobalExplorer]

The last thing I wanted to do was give the impression that this was some Panzer General like campaign title.

So, am I allowed to quote you that DC is not a Panzer General like campaign title?

[krupp_88mm]

So, am I allowed to quote you that DC is not a Panzer General like campaign title?

seems its not, but i don't see any reason it couldn't be (with alot of work), i think a much larger audience would be captured that way with a branching campaign, maybe more scenarios but smaller ones with more options, it cant be impossible to make a scenario grab unit stats form a previously saved battle file

[GlobalExplorer]

This is what I was trying to point out. If we ban PG out of our minds .. all people want is for some attributes to carry over, in those cases where the same units appear in the OOB of the next scenario.

This kind of continuity doesn't require much but reading a previous savegame and applying the values to the new unit instances before the next scenarios starts. If lets say every unit had a unique Id or something it would be very easy, otherwise a bit harder for some mechanism is required to identify the right instances.

[kirkgregerson]

Thanks very much for the response and explaining how the game mechanics work in the campaign. With that said, I have to say I'm very disappointing that it does work that way in averaging out experience. Not to be harsh, but who in the world with any knowledge of military history would code up a game to work that way? Unless it was done as the easiest way to code for the campaigns? Either way, I hope in your future games that if campaigns are chaining battles together with the same units that more consideration to unit experience and development. I don't think I'm alone in this hope. Maybe even a patch for this as an 'enhancement' to add this aspect would be a nice thought. [:)]

[kirkgregerson]

Also, now I have no incentive to continue my campaign as my spearhead armor units even though I won Case White have green exp.  If I start the Case Yellow as stand alone, these same units have 1-2 more exp points higher and I'll still have the same 50 pp that I started with after I won Case White.

[&:]

Sorry, but I'm still baffled WHY would you average out unit experience across an entire army after battles in the campaign?  Please just give me one good reason why that make more sense that units just keeping their experience?  As far as coding goods, it seems easy to skip writing some bogus algorithm to average exp.  Just the let units keep there exp after say Case White to Case Yellow?  Done, no other method to run in the code?  Lol.. sorry just seems so far out there I need to have some explanation to why this choice was made?

Sorry if so critical, but I put over 20 hours into Case White and micro'ing some units to be veterans for upcoming Case Yellow. I was very excited to see how they would fight with exp levels around 40-45 in lowlands and France. Now that is all shot down and my momentum for playing on is gone for now. I'm still looking forward to playing Case Yellow, but the wind in my sails is almost gone.

Hope Vic and reconsiders and at some point will change unit exp between battles in the campaign.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Vic

Sorry to hear there are expectations that the game is not meeting. It might be in the phrasing of the sales promotion texts that doesnt explicitly say that the continuity is not on unit level. But usually PR texts state what the game does do and not what it doesnt. It might be in other campaign containing games do things differently and customers subconsciously expect this 'campaign' to do the same.

But to give a clear and short answer: this is not a bug. This is intended functionality. Morale and experience and losses average out.

The campaign was always meant as an extra on top of the scenarios that would allow you to play them all with some consequences between them and to introduce some strategic action cards and random variants and links like Polish evacs and BEF evacs turning up in the next scenarios. The campaign aspects are thus relatively abstract and low detail level.

Again sorry to hear about some people disappointments. But this is how the game is. The last thing I wanted to do was give the impression that this was some Panzer General like campaign title.

Best regards,
Vic

Vic, for me the game exceeded my expectations. I never had thoughts of Panzer General when I read anything released or posted about the game. I know I've not read every post you have made, but I was never under the impression that ANY veteran unit would gain experience in battle and automatically have it's combat effectiveness, or overall experience level increase.

Units involved in combat take casualties. The men left have gained experience. But the casualties must be replaced, often(if not mostly) with green soldiers. The cumulative effect of this is...an averaging of morale and effectiveness. Depending on the level of losses and quality of replacements it is very possible for a combat unit to, at least temporarily, become less effective as a fighting unit. We could also consider the psychological effects on surviving soldiers, unit detachments, command changes at all levels..and more. Of course I am "rambling" huh? Anyway, I never inferred from you that any "unit continuity" was promised that would satisfy the previous complaints. The only thing I saw that might give "some" people this impression is the statement from the game description:"A campaign option that allows play of all three scenarios with continuity so losses, etc. transfer over." NO mention of individual units that.


Decisive Campaigns is one of the better games(difficult to even admit) that Matrix, and VR, have released in a very long time. No disappointment or feeling of being misled on my part.

I better go, I was told not to post on this thread. OOPS.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

parusski,

You're displaying a very low level of intelligence if you can't understand when I asked about an opinion it refered to my post. I guess the logical side of your brain never developed past a 2nd grade level? Actually, I think some 2nd graders would be offended at being compared to you after reading your comments on this post.

If you have nothing to say about the original post or can't figure it out, try reading the title again. If you still have no clue, then maybe don't post anything? You think?

Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I don't care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either.

Hmmm. Ten years as a member of this forum. Do I even respond? Were it not for your statement "Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either I would NEVER have graced your imminence with my presence again.

I have never flamed, attacked or otherwise been nasty to another member. A tendency towards sarcasm, always without malice, is a trait I have indulged in since childhood. Of my 428 posts, always benign and meaningless, 427 have been ignored. Seems everyone around here had the "INTELLIGENCE" to ignore me.

The logical side of my brain actually never developed at all. NEVER. Through luck, favoritism and alien intervention I somehow managed to obtain a Bachelor of Science in computer science, a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy and then I purchased my Masters in computer engineering from a diploma mill. You, my friend are very intuitive about my "very low level of intelligence".

I've never had anyone, in over 10 years here, actually throw sticks and stones at me. But I have not encountered the type person that would do so.

Alas, I will heretofore obey your dictum to "stay out of my post"(wherever and whatever that is). Also, I will respect your pronouncement to not post on this THREAD or even visit it.

I like good quotes, such as:

“What you are comes to you” Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.”, Mark Twain

“To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task”, Friedrich Nietzsche

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

parusski,

You're displaying a very low level of intelligence if you can't understand when I asked about an opinion it refered to my post. I guess the logical side of your brain never developed past a 2nd grade level? Actually, I think some 2nd graders would be offended at being compared to you after reading your comments on this post.

If you have nothing to say about the original post or can't figure it out, try reading the title again. If you still have no clue, then maybe don't post anything? You think?

Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I don't care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either.

Hmmm. Ten years as a member of this forum. Do I even respond? Were it not for your statement "Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either I would NEVER have graced your imminence with my presence again.

I have never flamed, attacked or otherwise been nasty to another member. A tendency towards sarcasm, always without malice, is a trait I have indulged in since childhood. Of my 428 posts, always benign and meaningless, 427 have been ignored. Seems everyone around here had the "INTELLIGENCE" to ignore me.

The logical side of my brain actually never developed at all. NEVER. Through luck, favoritism and alien intervention I somehow managed to obtain a Bachelor of Science in computer science, a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy and then I purchased my Masters in computer engineering from a diploma mill. You, my friend are very intuitive about my "very low level of intelligence".

I've never had anyone, in over 10 years here, actually throw sticks and stones at me. But I have not encountered the type person that would do so.

Alas, I will heretofore obey your dictum to "stay out of my post"(wherever and whatever that is). Also, I will respect your pronouncement to not post on this THREAD or even visit it.

I like good quotes, such as:

“What you are comes to you” Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.”, Mark Twain

“To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task”, Friedrich Nietzsche

Don't pay any attention to him. I didn't realize that anyone "Owned" a thread. He's getting to sound like a broken record whining about his Broken Game that was sold under dubious advertising!

[kirkgregerson]

parusski, I'm not trying to throw sticks at you..just go away. You have no place on this thread since you have nothing worthy to add to it. The fact you haven't been able to figure that out leaves me with many doubts about your common sense. I could care less about your 'bought' degrees. The fact that you purchased degrees is somewhat comical. I'm guessing you bought all your degrees online. Either way I don't care about you.

ORIGINAL: parusski
...and then I purchased my Masters in computer engineering from a diploma mill.

[parusski]

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: parusski

ORIGINAL: kirkgregerson

parusski,

You're displaying a very low level of intelligence if you can't understand when I asked about an opinion it refered to my post. I guess the logical side of your brain never developed past a 2nd grade level? Actually, I think some 2nd graders would be offended at being compared to you after reading your comments on this post.

If you have nothing to say about the original post or can't figure it out, try reading the title again. If you still have no clue, then maybe don't post anything? You think?

Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I don't care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either.

Hmmm. Ten years as a member of this forum. Do I even respond? Were it not for your statement "Parusski, stay out of my post please, go ramble on about what entertains you somewhere else. Either way I care about anything you have to say and I'm guessing most people you meet don't either I would NEVER have graced your imminence with my presence again.

I have never flamed, attacked or otherwise been nasty to another member. A tendency towards sarcasm, always without malice, is a trait I have indulged in since childhood. Of my 428 posts, always benign and meaningless, 427 have been ignored. Seems everyone around here had the "INTELLIGENCE" to ignore me.

The logical side of my brain actually never developed at all. NEVER. Through luck, favoritism and alien intervention I somehow managed to obtain a Bachelor of Science in computer science, a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy and then I purchased my Masters in computer engineering from a diploma mill. You, my friend are very intuitive about my "very low level of intelligence".

I've never had anyone, in over 10 years here, actually throw sticks and stones at me. But I have not encountered the type person that would do so.

Alas, I will heretofore obey your dictum to "stay out of my post"(wherever and whatever that is). Also, I will respect your pronouncement to not post on this THREAD or even visit it.

I like good quotes, such as:

“What you are comes to you” Ralph Waldo Emerson

“The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.”, Mark Twain

“To make the individual uncomfortable, that is my task”, Friedrich Nietzsche

Don't pay any attention to him. I didn't realize that anyone "Owned" a thread. He's getting to sound like a broken record whining about his Broken Game that was sold under dubious advertising!

LOL. Thanks Tony. I must have missed the secret memo about who can and can't post on the "owners" thread. You, like most everyone else that matters, know d**ned well I rarely post. And never do I post in criticism.

My original missive was actually tongue in cheek, not criminally serious. I was just responding to his "
Anybody else have an opinion?" question. He just did not like my opinion. At first I was going to respond to such an open ended question by giving my opinion on the quality of squash grown in Norway. But I thought that might offend him.

Little did I know.

PS, is my humour too subtle? Oh, wait. My wife just reminded me I am not funny.

OK. Now I am done.

[colberki]

Vic - Thanks for the clarification re the game design. I am respectful of your designer sensibilities. Overall, I still consider DCWtP to be a very good wargame.

As a veteran wargamer who enjoys the Panzer General, Steel Panthers, Combat Mission and War in Russia, they all have one factor which DCWtP does not, which is true carry over of unit experience - this I can say at least for most of us who play those games is an important part of the fun that we get from playing these games especially when playing soltaire as we used to call it.

I would have still bought DCWtP had I known about this matter just to see first hand what clearly is a very good game at the scenario level; but I would probably hesitate to buy the next iteration unless the campaign design was improved. In the 15-20 years of playing those other games before DCWtP, I almost never play the standalone scenarios. To nuture my favourite tank unit in PG, or crew members in Steel Panthers or CM, or division in WIR - one of the memorable highlights in life, as at least the pastime part of it!

This is the voice of one customer!

Cheers!!

[Josh]

"...To nuture my favourite tank unit in PG, or crew members in Steel Panthers or CM, or division in WIR - one of the memorable highlights in life..."

We sure are a strange kind of breed [:D] No woman would understand that, well except the lovely Rondha Brown ofcourse [&o]

Well I sure do remember PG units getting five stars or so [:D] with a strength of fifteen [:D] [:D] able to take out any Division the AI threw at me [:D] [:D] [:D] That five starred recon unit was unstoppable!

So yeah, hm, certainly won't stop me from playing this game though.

[abulbulian]

I have to agree with Kirk on this one. The fact that it's a feature to have unit experience averaged out across the entire Army as you move from battle to battle in the campaign doesn't make any sense. As a developer myself I can't understand why it wouldn't be simpler just to have units maintain their experience gain, or at least no more difficult to code up than averaging them out. Also, I think that bringing a div's regiments up to strength should reduce their overall exp using a simple formula.

Case White: end troops strength = 50% and exp 40, thus to fill ranks to 100% (50% more units with 10 exp)
= 20 + 5 = 25 starting exp Case Yellow.

So maybe a little more to code in for this aspect, but still very little and simple.

Last but not least, Parusski your first post on this thread was nothing more than antagonistic. Since then you've added nothing but large post filled with more idiotic banter and excessive quote blocks. Dude, lay off all the quote blocks, it's annoying. We can view previous postings. The purpose of this thread was to present a potential issue in the game and let others comment on their experience with that situation. As well to bring it to the attention of the developer(s) for a response or clarification.

[krupp_88mm]

...and then I purchased my Masters in computer engineering from a diploma mill.

lol thats pretty funny

but seriously
i could see the logic that unit losses would be replaced with green soldiers, i mean just look at the state of the german units in winter 1944 in the ardenes, they were green panzer units using young conscripts... according to the game model you guys are asking for they'd be uber vets, and according to the game model we have now... well the entire army would be uber elite vets, i think a formula needs to be added for losses, say all losses are replaced with 20 xp replacements or something similar, the 20xp number could change as the war went on dropping to like 5xp at the end of the war

so say your panzer unit had 45xp but suffered losses of 5%

(.95 x 45) + (.05 x 20) = 43.75 would be the new exp after unit replacements

now lets say its Russia 1943 your panzer unit has 75xp, but gets bombed by strumoviks and looses 30% of its personal, but thanks to the new panzer training program replacements are coming out with 30xp

(.70 x 75) + (.30 x 30) = 61.5 would be the new exp after unit replacements

[colberki]

Sounds good to me and in 1944, we can downgrade the quality of German replacemements to a lower number say 20 percent and in 1945 10 percent. No need for complicated branching campaign to mimic PG - DCWtP is its own game but unit level experience carry over is too big to leave out. So far halfway into Case Yellow in the Challenging Campaign, this is really the only change I like to see.

To keep things simple, destroyed units can restart the next scenario with 0-10 percent cadre+green recruits.

Vic- so sorry to keep raising the same topic! [&o]

[abulbulian]

War games have modeled the replacement starting experience in many ways. Some just use a period to define the experience:

example replacement exp:
1939 - 25
1940 - 20
1941 - 15
1942 - 10

arbitrary numbers, but the point being the level of unit experience is diminishing as the training periods decrease, skilled training officers less available (being sent to front: Pz Lehr Div), age and physical bar set lower and lower as manpower more and more scarce. Of course this would vary from nation to nation.

Either way, it's not that difficult to model the effect of replacements to units regrading experience.

[parusski]

Yeah abulbulian I understand that you and a few others see this thread as a kind of high-minded fraternity, only open to anyone who posts in an approved way. Tough luck. This thread does not belong to anyone. It's not exclusive to my betters. Vic did a good job of responding. And if you noticed my reply to his post was not childish, idiotic or whatever else you disapprove of.

The level of hypervigilance and hypocriticism(yes,both are one word)displayed by all is over the top.

You want a a nest of wasps to stop attacking you? Put down the stick you keep swinging at them.

Never in the more than 10 years since I became a member of this forum have I ever been involved in one of the hundred's of childish arguments like this one. I am as tame and lame as a kitten. I don't call people names or insult their intelligence, as some have done to me over the last 2 days. My original post was in response to kirkgregerson asking "anybody else here have an opinion?" So, like an idiot, I answered.

If a qualifier had been attached to his question requiring any poster follow certain rules, use idioms sparingly or address the question in technical language, then I still would have posted.

Finally, abulbulian....no, this is the point I return to watching a handful of others make fools of themselves. I will spend another 10 years watching from the corner, being grateful I only acted the clown for a couple of days.

[abulbulian]

lol, once again parusski feels the need to make a nonsensical post. Can anybody understand this guy? What part of 'if you have nothing to add, don't post' doesn't he understand?

Seriously dude, take your meds. I'm so applauded at his lack of refrain from this thread that I can't resist making a personal attack on him. Shame on me. [:-]

It's like telling a child not to put their fingers the windows because they will leave a smudge. Then you turn your back for a minutes and he's touching the window just to be a pain in the 'arse'.

The this guy has made 433 some posts, I'm going to go out on a limb and say about 430 of them had no substance and were a waste of people's time.

Here's a link for you parusski, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[kirkgregerson]

Lol [:D].

Thanks abulbulian, I could use some comic relief at this point.  What parusski doesn't seem to understand is I was not trying to slam Vic or the product at all.  Think it's a great game and I'm just trying to help make it better and get some idea as to why certain feature work the way they do.  I loved AT too and will most likely buy AT2 when it comes out.  People have to realize that Vic is doing development mostly alone and the more help and ideas the community can give him the better off his products will be. IMO.  Look at a game like World in Flames (WiF) which has taken over 5 years of development or more(?) and so far who knows when it will be out and how buggy it will be when it finally is released.  Also, the HOI series from Paradox which used me as their unknowing and unwilling beta testing bitch even when I just thought I was buying a final retail game.  How many patches did they need to get that right.  So no, I'm not coming down on Vic or WiP at all.  Think the few issues the game has are minor compared to the crap other gaming companies have put me through.  I'll never buy another Paradox game because of the trauma they caused me.

Can't we all just be friends. [:)]   <group hug>

[abulbulian]

You're right Kirk. I'll make my apology to parusski and we can move on. [:)]