OT: Kamikaze photos

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Xxzard

I'm thinking the fourth is a British carrier, as someone else said. The openings above the fantail are very distinctive, with an otherwise enclosed stern deck, and it looks like it may have a hurricane bow, which would definitely make it a brit carrier.

Warspite1

No, its definitely a Royal Navy carrier - the only doubt is which one. My guess was HMS Formidable, but it could be HMS Victorious.

[Mark Leonard]

Pic 3 is Essex
Pic 4 IS Victorious

The Vic took an island hit. I also verified with other image searches.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Profoundly cynnical on the part of higher-ups, agreed.

This is why Truman dropped the bomb. The invasion of the main islands would have been much worse.

Basically the entire civilian population (women, children, old people...all of them) were being prepared to fight the invasion with farm tools if necessary. As many people that died by the 2 Atomic Bombs, an invasion of Japan would have been exponentially worse. If Okinawa was any indication...I shudder to think about invading the Home Islands with the 1940s Bushido mindset.

[War History]

The Japanese expended 1100 kamikazies at Okinawa. These had to travel hundreds of miles over open ocean to reach their targets which were the carriers. For Olympic, the Japanese had an estimated 10,000 kamikazies ready (not counting suicide boats and midget subs), would have been approaching over land where no picket DDs would have been available to spot and the primary targets were to be troop ships. 10% of the USNs personnel casualties for all of WWII occurred at Okinawa. You can imagine what would have happened at Olympic.

Edit: The Japanese goal was always to make allied losses unacceptably high to the point where they would accept a negotiated peace. So in strictest terms, the Japanese achieved their goal. They just didn't get what they wanted to get [;)]

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Profoundly cynnical on the part of higher-ups, agreed.

This is why Truman dropped the bomb. The invasion of the main islands would have been much worse.

I know a decent amount of military history, probably not a LICK close to anyone from here, which AE really has opened my eyes to things like the little girls waving at young men going on a suicide mission.

I stood for an hour staring at the photo wondering how bad they feel remember that day, years later knowing young men are going to suicide for no cause what so ever.

Misconduct,

My view on kamikaze tactics has changed since playing WITP/AE.

Once, like you, I thought it was generally a waste. Young men willingly giving their lives for nothing.

However, I guess I didn't appreciate exactly how suicidal a "normal" mission was in late '44 or in '45 for a Japanese pilot. Even against great odds, with little chance of success, a "normal" mission seemed to somehow be morally superior. But then I got to thinking about it -- there must have been some calculus among Japanese pilots that said something akin to "if I am going to die anyway, I am going to take some of them with me." Which is a sentiment that most in the West can understand a bit better than mere blind devotion to the Emperor.

Regards,
Feltan

[Chickenboy]

Feltan, I think I agree with your "Kamikaze by degrees" approach. Both sides-USNAF and IJNAF would occasionally 'Kamikaze' enemy ships when their own planes were hopelessly damaged. There's a classic image of a USN SBD sitting on the rear turret of a Japanese CA (Mogami?) where he intentionally crashed.

The organized, large scale and intentional kamikaze raids were the most surprising aspects of their employment, IMO. Not the 'I'm going to die, so I'll take them out with me' mentality, which exists amongst warriors of all stripes.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Feltan, I think I agree with your "Kamikaze by degrees" approach. Both sides-USNAF and IJNAF would occasionally 'Kamikaze' enemy ships when their own planes were hopelessly damaged. There's a classic image of a USN SBD sitting on the rear turret of a Japanese CA (Mogami?) where he intentionally crashed.

i was mightily impressed by that photo of the Mikuma... and was mightily let down when it turns out it wasn't really an SBD (according to most experts - it was probably just wreckage from the ship).

Still an impressive photo, though: