Intel reports

[Canoerebel]

During the war the Allies often - not always, but often - knew either the precise or general location of the Japanese carriers.  As you can imagine, this gave the Allies a comfort level in planning and proceeding with operations, knowing that Allied TFs wouldn't get pounced upon by the KB.
 
The Allied player doesn't often have this luxury in AE (unless his opponent is inexperienced enough to frequently reveal the KB's location).

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

During the war the Allies often - not always, but often - knew either the precise or general location of the Japanese carriers.  As you can imagine, this gave the Allies a comfort level in planning and proceeding with operations, knowing that Allied TFs wouldn't get pounced upon by the KB.

The Allied player doesn't often have this luxury in AE (unless his opponent is inexperienced enough to frequently reveal the KB's location).

Exactly... even when the KB was sailing under radio silence, the USN had penetrated the (low-level) Harbormaster code which told them when and where a TF was due to leave/show up.

Imagine if the Allied player knew when any TF left a harbor and when it was expected to show up to the next harbor (and where the harbors in question were). Then you might get an idea of why i think the war could have been shortened by a LOT had the intel been used more wisely.

Generally, the Harbormaster code would routinely mention escort names, and since the same escorts tended to sail with the same "big boys", the picture becomes even more complete.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: War History

So you are saying that all the stuff you said before is bunk and has no weight.

So by default, this too should be considered bunk and have no weight. Just wanted you to admit your hypocrisy. Which you have now done.

What are you talking about??? [&:]

EDIT: If you are saying the Japanese knew more than what the game gives them, yes, it is true. But the Allies knew FAR FAR more than what the game gives them as well. So, given the relative strengths of the intel reports IN THE GAME, no, the Japanese do not deserve more.

It's not what he's talking about..., it's what he's talking out of.[:D] 37 posts, and he thinks he knows everything because he once read a book. We're engaged in a waste of our time trying to introduce this fellow to rational thought, research, and how the game works. [8|]

[Dobey455]

ORIGINAL: War History

In the case of the Kiska landings, according to Canadian reports, Tokyo Rose knew the UNIT STRENGTHS of the units aboard ship that were not even within air recon range of any Japanese base. They got that information how? Frankly, it doesn't matter HOW they got it, the fact is, they had it. The game should reflect that.

I could give you the TO&E and disposition of pretty much any unit and it's nominal strength given 5 minutes on wikipedia.

No code breaking required.

For most of the war it would be a pretty safe bet that most allied units that had not been heavily engaged recently would be at or near full strength.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: SuluSea
War History has a point the Japanese knew AF was short of water. [:D] [:D] [:'(]

Do you realize that 99.999% of the population has no idea what this means? Today, just a handful of historians, a few in the military, and a bunch of history buffs and AE (and similar games) people know.

I'm more worried that 80% or so don't know the name of their congressman.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I think the difference is that while IJ had the intel, they did not use it as effectively as the allies and in particular the USN.  We can conjecture as to why until the cows come home, but the historical fact is already in place. 

Being on the defensive for the most of the war. And I'm dead serious. Correct and timely (i.e., leaving enough time to actually react) prediction of major moves of the enemy that held strategic initiative in WW II by intelligence was exception, rather than the rule. Even when the overall intent was obvious, such as before Operation Citadel, key details were misread or unclear until the last moment. This was also a major reason, why most strategic defensive successes in WW II are associated with the attacker deciding to be very predictable and straightforward (Italian front), or the defender having the advantage of superior mobility and more robust logistics (Wehrmacht on Eastern front in 1942 and, to an extent, in 1943), i.e., situatios where faults of intelligence weren't as critical.

That said, Japanese intelligence in the game is goddamn useless. While Allied one is very good and is almost guaranteed to give away any Japanese strategic plan, unless the Japanese player deliberately cripples his fighting chances by fake preparation/launching preparation lately.

[War History]

Back in the late 70s was a game by Victory Games called "Pacific War". This game was in part researched by Al Nofi.

Many of you will know who he is but in case you dont, here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Nofi (Nofi has been considered to be one of the best researchers for games in the business).

The rules to that game included "Strategic Intell" (by both sides).
Here is a link to the rules of that game:
http://markherman.tripod.com/PacificWar.html

Here is a cut and paste screen shot of the designer rules from that section (page 41-42):



I would HIGHLY recommend people read how this worked before they write off the notion.

Now in a nutshell how it worked is this: Each player made a roll and compared that roll to the strat intel chart for that side by month/year. There there times when Jap intel was VERY good (getting into level 4) and other times that allied intel was very good. The chart varied according to the HISTORICAL abilities of each side during that month in the real war. Yes there were many times the Japanese could only achieve level 2 with the best roll on the chart. But there were also times where the allies could only achieve level 2 as well (if memory serves, June/July 42 is one of those times because of the changing of the Japanese codes - Midway operation actually began in May 42 which the allies had a very good chance of getting level 4).

(Personal to Mike: Your responses are always pro-allied. Allied player can't do something they could you whine about it, but if a similar Japanese position is raised you fight it tooth and nail. This is historical fact. So frankly it isn't worth anyones time to respond to you because you have a completely closed mind. I am not an allied fan boy. I am not a Japanese fan boy. I am a HISTORY fan boy. I, unlike you, have no agenda on the game.)

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

Back in the late 70s was a game by Victory Games called "Pacific War". This game was in part researched by Al Nofi.

Many of you will know who he is but in case you dont, here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Nofi (Nofi has been considered to be one of the best researchers for games in the business).

The rules to that game included "Strategic Intell" (by both sides).
Here is a link to the rules of that game:
http://markherman.tripod.com/PacificWar.html

Here is a cut and paste screen shot of the designer rules from that section (page 41-42):



I would HIGHLY recommend people read how this worked before they write off the notion.

Now in a nutshell how it worked is this: Each player made a roll and compared that roll to the strat intel chart for that side by month/year. There there times when Jap intel was VERY good (getting into level 4) and other times that allied intel was very good. The chart varied according to the HISTORICAL abilities of each side during that month in the real war. Yes there were many times the Japanese could only achieve level 2 with the best roll on the chart. But there were also times where the allies could only achieve level 2 as well (if memory serves, June/July 42 is one of those times because of the changing of the Japanese codes - Midway operation actually began in May 42 which the allies had a very good chance of getting level 4).

(Personal to Mike: Your responses are always pro-allied. Allied player can't do something they could you whine about it, but if a similar Japanese position is raised you fight it tooth and nail. This is historical fact. So frankly it isn't worth anyones time to respond to you because you have a completely closed mind. I am not an allied fan boy. I am not a Japanese fan boy. I am a HISTORY fan boy. I, unlike you, have no agenda on the game.)

Most of the information about the MAGIC decrypts, etc. was only starting to be released after about 1976 or so, with the bulk of it coming much later (early 1990s)

It would appear that any gaming system from the 1970's would woefully underestimate the discrepancy between the intel capabilities of the two sides.

[Puhis]

It's easy to denigrade japanese intelligence, when most of the war time documents are lost and western historians can't read them anyway...

[anarchyintheuk]

It might not be as easy if the best examples of IJN intel use are those provided above.

[War History]

Well 2 things Nofi had going for him back in the 70s is first off, a lot of the people that were there were still alive, and he did interview hundreds if not thousands of WWII vets (from all sides). He was also a defense analyst which gave him access to classified documents (BEFORE they were blacked out and released under the freedom of information act).

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

It's easy to denigrade japanese intelligence, when most of the war time documents are lost and western historians can't read them anyway...

The Japanese claimed/admitted they only partially broke one low-level US code during the entire war.

They also admitted that they did not have a well-developed, systematic system for analyzing/distributing information.

What they DID like is spies, and they had a good radio-direction finding service from most accounts.

However, their spy service (Nakano) turned out relatively low numbers of folk, numbering in the 100's during the war. Compare that to say, the OSS and the number of folk they had, not to mention the other countries (Britain, Australia, etc).

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

Well 2 things Nofi had going for him back in the 70s is first off, a lot of the people that were there were still alive, and he did interview hundreds if not thousands of WWII vets (from all sides). He was also a defense analyst which gave him access to classified documents (BEFORE they were blacked out and released under the freedom of information act).

To quote a GAME as a source is really not a good idea. By analogy, you could then claim that most queens were more powerful then their kings (from chess).

The idea of a game is to have some sort of play balance, not necessarily to present history accurately (and yes, WITP is a GAME, not a simulation.)

EDIT: i will also point out that being a defense analyst does NOT give one unlimited access to classified files.

[War History]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: War History

Well 2 things Nofi had going for him back in the 70s is first off, a lot of the people that were there were still alive, and he did interview hundreds if not thousands of WWII vets (from all sides). He was also a defense analyst which gave him access to classified documents (BEFORE they were blacked out and released under the freedom of information act).

To quote a GAME as a source is really not a good idea. By analogy, you could then claim that most queens were more powerful then their kings (from chess).

The idea of a game is to have some sort of play balance, not necessarily to present history accurately (and yes, WITP is a GAME, not a simulation.)

EDIT: i will also point out that being a defense analyst does NOT give one unlimited access to classified files.

Where did I say unlimited? Re-read it 4 times and I can't see where I said unlimited. But I will also note that you haven't provided 1 source to justify NOT putting it in. In fact no one has. You have a source that says the Japanese got no intell from any means during the war?

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: War History

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

ORIGINAL: War History

Well 2 things Nofi had going for him back in the 70s is first off, a lot of the people that were there were still alive, and he did interview hundreds if not thousands of WWII vets (from all sides). He was also a defense analyst which gave him access to classified documents (BEFORE they were blacked out and released under the freedom of information act).

To quote a GAME as a source is really not a good idea. By analogy, you could then claim that most queens were more powerful then their kings (from chess).

The idea of a game is to have some sort of play balance, not necessarily to present history accurately (and yes, WITP is a GAME, not a simulation.)

EDIT: i will also point out that being a defense analyst does NOT give one unlimited access to classified files.

Where did I say unlimited? Re-read it 4 times and I can't see where I said unlimited. But I will also note that you haven't provided 1 source to justify NOT putting it in. In fact no one has. You have a source that says the Japanese got no intell from any means during the war?

i have sources that say that got essentially ZIP from codebreaking, i.e. - no intelligence that was of any use.

Your use of two "hits" from Tokyo Rose out of the thousands of misses as a "proof" of great intel is, well, strange.

As for your using a game designer as a source: i was trying to be nice, but now if will say: just because you are a defense analyst does not necessarily mean that you have ANY access to classified WW2 documents. You say he did, i say maybe not.

Despite several posts i have made pointing out Japanese intel capabilities, you continue to insist i claim they had none.

And despite the fact that you claim to be a fan of history, you are apparently unaware of the well-established history, bringing up recent web articles that "show that historians were unaware of the facts". It only shows that the writer of the article was unaware of the facts that had been written on for the last 50 years, since it was WELL KNOWN that the Japanese had penetrated some codes in the 1930s.

Penetrating some codes in the 1930s does not equate to having penetrated them during the war.

If there is good proof that they did, i would be very interested to see that proof.

Since the original assertation is demonstrably untrue (i.e. - historians DID know about code penetrations in the 1930s), your whole premise is now suspect, the "proof" of Tokyo Rose notwithstanding.

[rtrapasso]

But I will also note that you haven't provided 1 source to justify NOT putting it in. In fact no one has. You have a source that says the Japanese got no intell from any means during the war?

i have made at least 2 posts now stating that the game does not accurately represent neither the Allied NOR the Japanese intel capabilities, but the relative strengths of the intel reports are shown by the game are more than fair to the Japanese side.

Since you have continued to misrepresent my position, as well as insulting me and attributing bad motives, i see little point in my further discussing the issue with you.

You are the first person i've greenbuttoned in about 2 years, iirc, but i think it is well deserved.

[Barb]

Well intel isnt only about breaking codes. It is also based on traffic analysis, spies, clues, hints and other things. When there is big number of messages coming from and to one point, there will be HQ, if there is big activity in radio communications, something is cooking up, if there is quietness, its already cooked, or nothing is cooking up there. Also reading voice communications of pilots, knowing call signs and other things can make up a nice picture about the enemy without codebreaking messages.

You probably wont know the details to intercept a particular ship or convoy, but you can get the bigger picture about enemy and his intentions.

The Japs are deprived of many usefull things with their intel.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well intel isnt only about breaking codes. It is also based on traffic analysis, spies, clues, hints and other things. When there is big number of messages coming from and to one point, there will be HQ, if there is big activity in radio communications, something is cooking up, if there is quietness, its already cooked, or nothing is cooking up there. Also reading voice communications of pilots, knowing call signs and other things can make up a nice picture about the enemy without codebreaking messages.

You probably wont know the details to intercept a particular ship or convoy, but you can get the bigger picture about enemy and his intentions.

The Japs are deprived of many usefull things with their intel.

True (as i have mentioned several times above), and the Allies are deprived of many things that would have been of far more use, i.e. - the (at least general) whereabouts of the CVs at virtually any time during the war, not to mention sailing times and arrivals of all escorts leaving Japanese harbors, etc.

What do you think was more useful?

As an aside: one of the things complained about bitterly in the old WITP was in fact, historically accurate: the appearance of aircraft at a base. The Allies usually (almost always?) knew about impending transfers of Japanese aircraft into a base, and if they were within range they could (and did) bomb or strafe the airfield synchronized for the time that the time the aircraft would be arriving low on fuel.

[spence]

It's easy to denigrade japanese intelligence, when most of the war time documents are lost and western historians can't read them anyway...

Frankly I am quite tired of hearing this as an excuse for almost everything.
Enough of the Japanese records survived (in spite of their efforts to the contrary) to adequately reconstruct the Japanese side of things for virtually the entire war.

As far as Japanese Intelligence the Japanese Player NEVER has to deal with his own troops/commanders blatantly lying about how the battle turned out. I'm not talking about Petty Officer Takahashi saying he scored a bomb hit when he really missed by a country mile: I'm talking about Admiral Yamamoto and his staff telling the IJ Army that they had won the Battle of Midway. I'm talking about the air commanders on Guam failing to mention that just about every plane that survived their encounters with TF58 at the Battle of the Philippine Sea was shot down when they tried to land on Guam and that most of those who did manage to land would never take off again.

American intelligence was far more operationally useful. Midway is a famous instance but the Brits cleared their fleet or most of it out of Ceylon because they were aware that the KB was coming to call. Ship sailings and routings frequently resulted in IJN convoys and ships being set upon by US/Allied submarines with dire consequences for the IJ ships: Shinano comes to mind. USS England proceeded straight from one patrol station to the next and cleaned up a whole IJN submarine patrol line based on SIGINT.

No doubt the Japanese selectively destroyed all the records of their own corresponding successes.[8|]

[War History]

I would say, at the very least, the Japanese player should get the same "signals intel" (although I will admit not the same amount clearly a lesser amount than the allies) meaning occasional unit location and prepping target (including units aboard ships). In times of heavy allied activity perhaps slightly more info should be revealed (or rather a chance of it) such as ship movements (which the Japanese knew as attested to by "Tokyo Roses" criminal conviction). I will concede that going the whole 9 yards that Nofi did with a month by month breakdown of the entire war is probably impractical with this game engine. An "average" such as it is currently for the allies I think is reasonable. I think it also reasonable the Japanese should receive at least half the allied ability.