Steam sale

[Scott_WAR]

Seriously- more people use steam than frequent this forums by an extremely large margin with no troubles or issues at all. I am sure you dont have any memory stealing, virus spewing or PC damaging conspiracies to worry about when you use steam. Otherwise my business selling hi-tech PC shenanigan shields (high tech metal thats paper thin and able to be formed into any desired shape.......similiar to aluminium foil, but its not we swear. Shiny side out for wireless connections,...shiny side in for wired connections) would really be doing well.

[ilovestrategy]

Over the years I've had a good 4 or 5 computer with the same Steam account and same games and I have had only one problem in all those years, and that was just a glitch in Steam starting up. And that was maybe a day.  I don't what all that lawyer lingo means but I haven't had any performance issues with any of my comps that used Steam.

You know what I've had problems with over the years? Lost CDs. Scratched CDs. CDs stuck in the back of a closet somewhere. For example I loved this game called Birth of the Federation and lost the CD while moving and the game was out of production. If it would have been a Steam game I could have just downloaded it again like I did Half Life 2.

Rome Total War update. I just conquered a Spanish city in North Africa but the "encouraged to be happy" populace is starting to rebel. If I have to take over that city a second time I may have to use the "Exterminate the local populace" option.   I wish these forums had some sort of Roman emoticon! [:D]

[Bison36]

Personally I wish Matrix had a digital library that stored my games like Steam, Impulse, gog, gamersgate. I know I can burn a cd, but there really is something comforting to knowing a backup is stored online.

[ilovestrategy]

Actually, I downloaded Distant Worlds to my laptop after buying it for my desktop. I can't remember how i did it though. The other members here are a lot more better than i am.

[diablo1]

ORIGINAL: Bison36

Personally I wish Matrix had a digital library that stored my games like Steam, Impulse, gog, gamersgate. I know I can burn a cd, but there really is something comforting to knowing a backup is stored online.

They do sort of actually. You can goto Digital River and use "Find my order/game" then put in your account information (credit card, order number stuff like that) and it will bring up your Matrixgames downloads. Then there is the Matrixgames "Members" section that keeps a record of all your games as well but you have to register them there and it's a new user name usually and password separate from the forums unless of course you register with the same name etc.

The key thing is you have to remember the credit card(s) you used when searching for your information or have saved the order numbers and the email address you used. It's kind of a pain for those of us who change credit card numbers by the year (to protect against identity theft) I've since started keeping a record in my email folder.

Granted Steam is so much easier since they just have an account page (much like Matrixgames members area) that has all your games stored whether on your hard drive or not. It would be nice if Matrixgames could get away from Digital River and get with more of the modern day storage system of the other guys. Gamersgate, D2D, Impulse and GOG all have the same system pretty much like Steam as well. You just goto your games page and there are all the games you own even if they aren't on your hard drive.

[Lützow]

Fallout New Vegas just reminded me why I hate Steam so much. Since the title got bound to this "service", it's not possible to rent it from video store anymore. Purchasing from Steam is not on option though, as they only sell censored versions at my place. However, the Austrian (uncut) Fallout is way overprized here and most digital download distributors don't even offer it. With the exception of D2D, which again want my phone number to call back for verification purpose, and I don't like that. So no New Vegas for me. [:(]

That's not even the worst. In case of the latest CoD spin-off Steam doesn't allow to register a UK/US version from Germany anymore. Off course, one could probably still outwit them by using a VPN (or asking a friend from over the pond). On the other hand, violating their license agreement would entitle Steam to ban your account and that might be a huge loss for those who purchased a lot of games there.

Playing video games for 20 years now and every ban in this country could be still circumvented by imports or digital distributors. However, with Steam becoming a to-be standard, it won't be possible anymore. This is not a service, but rather a tool to enforce censorship and copyright policies.

[diablo1]

In the sound of Arnold Swartzeneager (probably sp) You cannot stop the future of Big Brother. We vill always be bach! Resistance is futile! You vill all be assimulated!

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

Nobody knows what that stuff means,...not even the lawyers who wrote it.

Which is why I'm skeptical about agreeing to it. That EULA, just to agree to use their client strikes me as being a lot more involved than most EULAs.

When I combine that with the fact that: some of the games require you to be logged in to play, else to log in in order to "switch to offline mode" (which also seems to be somewhat temporary, and eventually to require relogging) I'm hesitant to make any use of Steam. Add to that, they seem to like to make some of the better selling games Steam compulsory, now that just rubs my fur the wrong way.

Selling it to me via e-commerse: hey cool. Distributing it to me via digital download: neat, I'm there. Keeping track of what I've bought so I can easily reDL the games I've bought in future: absolute a nice perk.

Thing is, other digital distributors offer those exact same functions and services (Gamersgate & Matrix I know do, and I suspect others too), but without (a) a long and incomprehensible EULA just to install the client app; (b) requiring networking to play; (c) creating deals of exclusive distribution with some publishers that also necessitate (a) and (b).

It feels coercive, intrusive, and imposing. Add to that, they guarantee absolutely nothing, and clearly in their EULA have made the user agree that Valve/Steam has zero obligations to the user and the freedom to discontinue users as they see fit . . . not giving them my money.

I realize Steam is one of, if not the biggest in games these days = lots of people who did agree to their EULAs and who did give them their money. That proves nothing about the soundest, the ethicality, the fairness, the quality, the consistency, the predictability or the general goodwill of their services and business practices, which I am arguing are not sufficiently impressive for me to patronize them. At least not as long as there are other games I am perfectly happy with that I can get without getting into the Steam pipe.

ADDIT: for example Gamersgate "Strategy Week Sale" . . .

Wow, might have to do some stocking up . . .

[LarryP]

Have you ever seen a EULA agreement that benefited the end user? I have never even seen in my 55 years of life, a contract made by an opposing party that benefited me. It's always about them.

[Anthropoid]

Not saying I'm an expert on EULAs, but that one for the Steam Client does seem more "good for them" than most of them. I'd be curious to hear what somebody like Erik thinks of the terms of service that Steam imposes.

[LarryP]

Erik might stay neutral on this. [;)] That Steam Eula is a tricky worded one for sure. I hated Steam for years and was sure I got a virus through their servers about four years ago. Then I beefed up my security with a better firewall and anti virus program, and started buying their games that were on sale. Especially at Christmas time, boy do they have good prices! [X(]

However, now I am having another problem that I can't resolve with them. Their games files keep getting corrupted. No other files on my game partition have this problem, only in the Steam directory. And it's happening on my laptop as well as this desktop, so it's not something wrong with one machine. Until I find out what is causing this, I'm done with them. Yesterday I went through every game I have installed through Steam, and it had to replace hundreds of missing files! Both machines too. [:@] Here is the forum post, and no replies yet: Files missing or corrupted sometimes

Got off topic there. Sorry. [:-] [&o]

[Anthropoid]

I really like these guys at Matrix. I feel the same way about the guys at Ageod and Paradox. And I bet you're right Larry, and I wouldn't blame him at all, though I would still love to know what these guys at the publishers that I respect really do think of Steam. But that right there tells me something.

Steam on the other hand, I don't feel any "people" on the other end of the network connection with that firm. It just feels like "staff" and "corporate policy" with lawyers and CEO-types upstream of that. Half-Life was definitely a good game. But I effectively cannot play it anymore, and the last time I tried to get Valve to help me with it, it was not helpful.

I'm not gonna give them another chance until I see clear signs they are different than when that happened, and I don't see that.

[LarryP]

Since you like Paradox and Ageod, how about gog.com? Now those guys are supportive and their prices are superb. Excellent site for older games with NO DRM. [:)]

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I'm a little concerned by these two sections of the EULA I have to agree to to install the Steam Client on this machine.

6. Limitation of Liability. VALVE, ITS SUPPLIERS AND DISTRIBUTORS SHALL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OF THE PROGRAM INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES. ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED. Valve CANNOT AND WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE FAILURES OR ANY OTHER EVENT WHICH MAY RESULT IN A LOSS OF DATA OR DISRUPTION OF SERVICE. Some states/jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitations may not apply.

7. Equitable Remedies. You hereby agree that Valve would be irreparably damaged if the terms of this License Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Valve shall be entitled to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this License Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Valve may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws. In the event any litigation is brought by either party in connection with this License Agreement, the prevailing party in such litigation shall be entitled to recover from the other party all the costs, attorneys' fees and other expenses incurred by such prevailing party in the litigation

So, some of you guys who are Steam users who already agreed to this, can you explain to me what that part about "ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED" really means?

I assume you're baiting here, and that you do have an idea what this means and you want to make a point about it. Trouble is, I can't tell what your point is. I think your point is the EULA is hopelessly stacked against anyone who is not a lawyer and in the event of a conflict, you will lose. I think that's implicit and although most people don't think about it or care about at the time they agree to it, they understand it.

I would say that if you are trying to make a living, financially speaking, off the game in some way, other than simply playing it, then you'll find the EULA to be relevant.

[Anthropoid]

I am all for intellectual property owners protecting their rights, and have nothing per se against EULAs. It is just that Steam's strikes me as being particularly heavy-handed. I did have the intuition that what it does overall is 'stack the odds' against the user in the event of a dispute, but beyond that, no I honestly did not know for sure what that stuff would mean legally.

Your point to me begs the question: if Valve/Steam are just doing what is reasonable and pragmatic, then why don't all EULAs look like theirs? In fact, why don't all distributors look like Steam?

There is a pretty clear underlying philosophy of the consumer-patron relationship in Steam/Valve's business model: we don't trust, and we don't like you. In fact, we don't respect you either. Just give us the money, and we'll give you the goods, as long as you play by our rules. As long as your expectations are 'normal' (from a distributive population standpoint) you'll like us just fine, but we reserve the right to NOT satisfy you at all. It is not our goal. Volume, and market penetration is our goal.

Let me contrast that with the ethos I pick up from say Matrix: sorry about this but, here is this serial key that we need you to use. Please believe me, we're gamers like you, but we're also business men and we are aware that there could be some cheaters amongst us. Our games are not for everyone, but we find that the guys and gals that like us, well, we like them a lot too. We're kind've a community of like-minded strategy and wargame enthusiasts. Some people seem to feel that hanging around in our forums is at least as much fun, if not more fun than actually playing our games [:)] You'll find that we charge a pretty high price for our games, but we also stand behind them, and we do everything in our power to insure you are happy as a customer and fellow gamer. We're certainly not a charitable organization . . . and beyond that, I don't think they are nearly as transparent in their goals to make lots of money; I like to imagine the Matrix folks doing pretty well fiscally and living a good life based on their hard work, for one thing because they strike me as nice folks, but for another because they make games that I enjoy and which don't involve DRM or tricky EULAs.

If one's goal really is to protect one's bottom line, then being more cagey and wiley with one's client's might, in fact, NOT be the best strategy.

Here is another interesting story about what a failure DRM proved to be with Spore, and how it indeed backfired, causing the game to suffer even worse piracy.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spo...0912spore.html

How do you measure the failure of the copy protections that software companies place on their media products? In the case of Electronic Arts' highly-anticipated game "Spore," just count the pirates.

As of Thursday afternoon, "Spore" had been illegally downloaded on file-sharing networks using BitTorrent peer-to-peer transfer 171,402 times since Sept. 1, according to Big Champagne, a peer-to-peer research firm. That's hardly a record: a popular game often hits those kinds of six-figure piracy numbers, says Big Champagne Chief Executive Eric Garland.

But not usually so quickly. In just the 24-hour period between Wednesday and Thursday, illegal downloaders snagged more than 35,000 copies, and, as of Thursday evening, that rate of downloads was still accelerating. "The numbers are extraordinary," Garland says. "This is a very high level of torrent activity even for an immensely popular game title." . . .

"PC games are massively pirated because you can pirate them," says Brad Wardell, chief executive of Plymouth, Mich.-based gaming company Stardock. Wardell argues that the driver for piracy is user-friendliness--not price. Instead of digital locks, Stardock requires users to use unique serial numbers which it monitors, in conjunction with IP addresses.

"Our focus is on getting people who would buy our software to buy it," Wardell says, rather than trying to strong-arm people unlikely to pay for the products into become paying customers.

ADDIT: from a consumer psychology perspective, the fact that DRM seems to cause more harm than good to the maker's bottom line comes as no surprise to me

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...sed-by-drm.ars

Musicload: 75% of customer service problems caused by DRM
By Ken Fisher | Last updated March 18, 2007 6:39 PM
Deutsche Telekom's Musicload, one of the largest online music stores in Europe, has come out strongly against DRM on account of its effects on the marketplace and its customers, according to German-language Heise Online.

Musicload said in a letter distributed last week that customers are having consistent problems with DRM, so much so that 3 out of 4 customer service calls are ultimately the result of the frustrations that come with DRM. In a business where the major music labels expect to be paid well for their source material, the costs of supporting DRM are borne entirely by the music retailers. If the labels' love affair with DRM is hurting the companies trying to make a go at selling music online, something is horribly wrong.

[Jeffrey H.]

Aha....so you were baiting, as I suspected. It's ok with me though.

I tend to think that the EULAs are a reflection of and in many way a reaction to the business environment. I think Steam has a lot on their plate in terms of content pass though EULA requirements, a huge customer base and high volumes. Lots of money attracts all sorts of attention, good and bad.

Matrix OTOH has a relatively simple approach because it's dealing to a much more limited and focused customer base and the volumes are small in comparison.

But I do agree with you on the negative aspects of DRM and heavy handed EULA's. I tend to avoid buying anything on steam, and only have a few games that require steam, L4D and L4D2. I've had a great time with them and in particular L4D I hope to be able to play as long as I live. It does bother me that the plug can and probably will be pulled on me someday and I avoid steam for that reason.

I also avoid old games with invasive DRM. I just try to find something else to play. I haven't really ran into any roadblocks yet although I wish Silent Hunter was DRM free.

It's a little bit odd but in some sense I do think the pirates are performing a good service, in that someday I may need a pirated version just to have a version to play at all.

[Anthropoid]

And the fact is: somebody who _REALLY_ wants to play Steam games but not pay, can easily do so. I understand Steam is cracked within days of a new game coming out. The question them becomes (a) how many of those who patronize Steam would do so even if they weren't so heavy handed; and (b) how many people like me and you, who tendency to avoid Steam is exacerbated by the heavy hand?

The issue of the "plug being pulled" is I think real for any digital download only game, and that applies to GOG, Gamersgate, Matrix, etc. (though obviously being able to install it on your HD and then not have to login again _is_ diferent than some Steam games). But because Gamersgate strikes me as "friendly" I guess 'losing my product' when/if the plug got pulled doesn't feel so negative as it would feel if I had to place myself in Steam's hands.

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


The issue of the "plug being pulled" is I think real for any digital download only game, and that applies to GOG, Gamersgate, Matrix, etc. (though obviously being able to install it on your HD and then not have to login again _is_ diferent than some Steam games). But because Gamersgate strikes me as "friendly" I guess 'losing my product' when/if the plug got pulled doesn't feel so negative as it would feel if I had to place myself in Steam's hands.

I can't count the number of times I wanted to play a game and couldn't because I lost the CD to it. Rome total war, Ascendancy, Age of Rifles, Civ II(I had to buy that CD again), Birth of the Federation and I'm sure there is more.

Steam is no problem. No CD, no hassle. I want to play on my laptop? No problem, I just download whatever game I have in my library.

For me, losing a CD is no different than the plug getting pulled. And besides, Steam is HUGE. I can't see them pulling the plug.