Unit composition questionare

[Update]

I have a few questions from using the editor. I am trying to make sense of the TOE databases so here are they:
1. How do you define the number of support squads needed (in game terms) in a unit?
2. How is the amount of motor (and horse) transportation set up, both for combat units and support units?
(=artillery individual unit speed says 0, where do you assign proper mode of transportation?)
3. How do you define which units or parts of a large unit are motorized and which are horse transported and finally walking units?
(=Inf. Div.: combat units by leg, artillery divided between by horse and motorized, engineers motorized and AT-units by armoured tractors)
4. How do you set up cities own AAA-units (embedding them into the city info), besides making a counters and sticking them over every city?
5. Can you define more unit classes, there seems to be empty spaces, like bicycle infantry?
6. What is the case of units that I found which are delayed more turns than there is game turns? Like some of the German Pz Brigades (West Front???).

Just trying to understand the mechanism behind the numbers.[&:]

By the way, is there any reason I cannot add more weapons, units, pictures etc. for the empty slots?
And finally, are the data in metric or US system?

Sorry for the long list but thanks in advance [:'(]

[Rosseau]

I think the "building the Maus" editor AAR thread can answer a few of your questions.

[Update]

Actually kind of only to the one of adding more units. The questions 1-6 would be mostly related to "MAUS-building" picture on post number 9.
for example it says that: "vehicles/needed 1915/1975" and "support/needed 288/288" how do I change or define these numbers? Or, it says that division is motorized, what about if the 105mm arty is horsedrawn (run out of trucks[:D]) how to do that?

[Montbrun]

ORIGINAL: Pertti

I have a few questions from using the editor. I am trying to make sense of the TOE databases so here are they:
1. How do you define the number of support squads needed (in game terms) in a unit?
2. How is the amount of motor (and horse) transportation set up, both for combat units and support units?
(=artillery individual unit speed says 0, where do you assign proper mode of transportation?)
3. How do you define which units or parts of a large unit are motorized and which are horse transported and finally walking units?
(=Inf. Div.: combat units by leg, artillery divided between by horse and motorized, engineers motorized and AT-units by armoured tractors)
4. How do you set up cities own AAA-units (embedding them into the city info), besides making a counters and sticking them over every city?
5. Can you define more unit classes, there seems to be empty spaces, like bicycle infantry?
6. What is the case of units that I found which are delayed more turns than there is game turns? Like some of the German Pz Brigades (West Front???).

Just trying to understand the mechanism behind the numbers.[&:]

By the way, is there any reason I cannot add more weapons, units, pictures etc. for the empty slots?
And finally, are the data in metric or US system?

Sorry for the long list but thanks in advance [:'(]

JAW is the authority on the formulas for your questions. He'll have to answer.

Brad

[Helpless]

1. How do you define the number of support squads needed (in game terms) in a unit?

It is calculated automatically based on the unit composition.

2. How is the amount of motor (and horse) transportation set up, both for combat units and support units?
(=artillery individual unit speed says 0, where do you assign proper mode of transportation?)

There is switch on the unit tab - Motorized/Non-motorized.

3. How do you define which units or parts of a large unit are motorized and which are horse transported and finally walking units?
(=Inf. Div.: combat units by leg, artillery divided between by horse and motorized, engineers motorized and AT-units by armoured tractors)

Unit can be either motorized or non motorized. Than separate elements have it's own truck requirements.

4. How do you set up cities own AAA-units (embedding them into the city info), besides making a counters and sticking them over every city?

It is usual AA units assigned to the cities. You may do it by setting the HHQ (it is broken in 1.00, should be fixed in coming patch). Cities are on the bottom of the scroll list.

5. Can you define more unit classes, there seems to be empty spaces, like bicycle infantry?

No, classes and types are hardcoded.

6. What is the case of units that I found which are delayed more turns than there is game turns? Like some of the German Pz Brigades (West Front???).

They just are out of the current scenario, but could be added if required.

By the way, is there any reason I cannot add more weapons, units, pictures etc. for the empty slots?

You can. You need to edit generic data first. See my Maus thread.

And finally, are the data in metric or US system?

All data is in Imperial/US (miles, ft, lbs, etc). For the convenience (as I was adding them [:)] ) there is a translation to Metric system for the aircraft. But the end data is stored in Imperial units.

[Update]

Thank You.
Now let me bug you a little bit more[:'(]

Since the motorized/non-mot. is done by simple click (nice) what is the purpose of ground element type # 026,027 and 028? (light, medium and heavy trucks)

Unit can be either motorized or non motorized. Than separate elements have it's own truck requirements.

So, it means that within a unit (division) all the listed weapons are the same transport mode? There is no way to, as an example, have infantry division where all else is non-mot. but the 12x 150mm arty (not attached but organic) is counted as motorized and acts accordingly? Or does it make any difference except during movement?

And last, we are doing a game set up in Europe by European militaries and measurements are in Imperial/US?[&:] Well, in that case, nah, never mind, I don't think I want to go there[:D]

[Great_Ajax]

There are a lot of vehicles, devices, and units that are built into the database that are not used. Remember that this game started development around 2000 and some of the design decisions changed over time. I haven't used any light, medium, or heavy trucks in any of the scenarios and these may be a holdover from when unit types were imported from Steel Panthers.

Once you pick a movement type (Motorized or Horse), it affects the entire unit as a whole. The speed of your combat elements is what is going to drive the movement speed of the entire unit. Even if you have leg infantry and have motorized artillery in the division, your infantry division is still constrained by how fast the infantry can march. It is a simple effective decision I think.

As for the measurements, obviously it was made by an American so whatever Gary feels comfortable with, that is what he is going to use

Trey

ORIGINAL: Pertti


Thank You.
Now let me bug you a little bit more[:'(]

Since the motorized/non-mot. is done by simple click (nice) what is the purpose of ground element type # 026,027 and 028? (light, medium and heavy trucks)

Unit can be either motorized or non motorized. Than separate elements have it's own truck requirements.

So, it means that within a unit (division) all the listed weapons are the same transport mode? There is no way to, as an example, have infantry division where all else is non-mot. but the 12x 150mm arty (not attached but organic) is counted as motorized and acts accordingly? Or does it make any difference except during movement?

And last, we are doing a game set up in Europe by European militaries and measurements are in Imperial/US?[&:] Well, in that case, nah, never mind, I don't think I want to go there[:D]

[Helpless]

Now let me bug you a little bit more

Not a single problem.

Since the motorized/non-mot. is done by simple click (nice) what is the purpose of ground element type # 026,027 and 028? (light, medium and heavy trucks)

These are just another ground type element, they don;t have any impact on unit motorization. Ex. Soviet Rifle division in 1941 had light (DD) tanks and armored cars, but they do not consider as motorized. They same as German infantry division can have some minor number of armored car but still are considered as non-motorized. Motorization flag is totally independent of unit's composition (ground elements) and could be misused or set wrongly. It is up to editor to make the decision. In game AI set's motorized flag to some certain units on the build based on their TOE(OB).

So, it means that within a unit (division) all the listed weapons are the same transport mode? There is no way to, as an example, have infantry division where all else is non-mot. but the 12x 150mm arty (not attached but organic) is counted as motorized and acts accordingly? Or does it make any difference except during movement?

Yes if you think of unit as strategic/operational entity. I can think as they move as the slowest element in the group. But the same element requires different amount of vehicles depending on unit motorization status.

[Update]

Thank you, this clarifies quite a few things and now some more headaches for you experts!
BTW, I quess "Helpless" nic doesn't really fit him, but what about his picture? Has anybody actually seen him?[;)]

Anyway, the reason I am asking all these questions is that I am trying to understand the mechanism behind the game interface (so to speak) in order to be able to correctly fix the Finnish TOE, MAP etc. Yes, I have indentified quite a lot of things that should or could get fixed. I will try to post some of them (with references etc) ASAP. I am using "The Road to Leningrad"-scenario as my testbed for fixes.

Now, to the point after this rambling:

1. How can you model AT-gun unit pulled by an armored tractor (Komsomolets w/ 7.62 Degtjarjev)? I know that PzGr squad has internal armor set to 1 but would that work with AT-guns?

2. How to place a new city on the map and how to change names for cities (wrong city or wrong spelling) already in the map? For example: Vyborg should be Viipuri.

3. What are the formulas the game engine uses for calculating support unit numbers and motor vehicle numbers? It seems that they are too high for Finnish official TOE. Reality was even less vehicles than TOE specifies. BTW, are all Axis trucks in the same data, no separate country counts?

4.Why the rail doesn't allow usage in Karjala (Karelia) after Finnish troops advance? The gauge is close enough to allow through-running, even today. (Russian gauge 1520mm and Finnish gauge 1524mm or, to put it in the "proper" units[:D],
4ft 11 and 5/6 inch for Russian versus 5ft for Finland. Actually, the network in Karjalan Kannas (Karelia Isthmus) is in Finnish gauge all the way to Terijoki since it was Finnish territory until 3/40. Finnish armored trains used it during summer -41 to support the advance. By the way, any way to model armored trains??

5. Is there proper order of listing the composite parts of a unit since the actual listing that you see in the game counters is in a different order from what I put in TOE.

6. Where is the interface button for neck massage, I cannot find it ! [:'(]

[Helpless]

"Helpless" nic doesn't really fit him, but what about his picture?

So does my forum pic and internal mood, but god made me work in customer support for many years..

Has anybody actually seen him?

If you lived in Espoo/Helsinki some 9-10 years ago you could have chance to see me there.

I will try to post some of them (with references etc) ASAP

Don't be hurry, take your time I hope Jyri will show up here as well as he was our main Finnish consultant.

1. How can you model AT-gun unit pulled by an armored tractor (Komsomolets w/ 7.62 Degtjarjev)? I know that PzGr squad has internal armor set to 1 but would that work with AT-guns?

You need an new ground element. You may look at the ZiS soviet SP-AT on the tractor's chassis.

2. How to place a new city on the map and how to change names for cities (wrong city or wrong spelling) already in the map? For example: Vyborg should be Viipuri.

You need to edit city database in scenario. As for Vyborg, I'm really glad you are not a Romanian patriot who may find some cities with Hungarian names as they were politically under it's authority. You may change city names to whatever you like, but you need to edit map art for the big cities and urban areas.

4.Why the rail doesn't allow usage in Karjala (Karelia) after Finnish troops advance? The gauge is close enough to allow through-running, even today. (Russian gauge 1520mm and Finnish gauge 1524mm or, to put it in the "proper" units,
4ft 11 and 5/6 inch for Russian versus 5ft for Finland. Actually, the network in Karjalan Kannas (Karelia Isthmus) is in Finnish gauge all the way to Terijoki since it was Finnish territory until 3/40. Finnish armored trains used it during summer -41 to support the advance. By the way, any way to model armored trains??

You may use it after repair as with every rail in the game. There is no armored trains in the game. May be some day..

5. Is there proper order of listing the composite parts of a unit since the actual listing that you see in the game counters is in a different order from what I put in TOE.

I didn't quite understand the question here. If unit is divided correctly (with appropriate subTo link) they should get highlighted on the map with blue outline.

6. Where is the interface button for neck massage, I cannot find it !

If you spend with game long enough, every second button press should lead to the neck "massage" from your wife or GF

[Helpless]

Btw, keep in mind that unfortunately many things in Finland done not historically just to satisfy engine limitation. Jyri did great job in fixing many OOB errors, but sometimes it wasn't possible.

[Update]

Btw, keep in mind that unfortunately many things in Finland done not historically just to satisfy engine limitation. Jyri did great job in fixing many OOB errors, but sometimes it wasn't possible.

Which is the reason I am trying to understand the editorial aspects. And believe me, the Continuation War TOE versus actual TOE is something that would give nightmares even to to hardened German quartermasters.[:D]
Just to give an idea for players: In 1941, the artillery branch of the field army used 67 different models of artillery pieces with most of the types having multiple types of ammunition. Remember, in addition there was coastal artillery and AA-artillery with their own peculiarities, and then the infantry weapons with their multinational sources . I think that we would have to extend the database just in order to model all of them.
No, I do not suggest that![:-]
Why was that? Because beggars can't be choosers, that is to say that Finns bought what was available in the market since the war was raging all over the place and availability was limited.

[Helpless]

Well, problem is with adding extra equipement (we dodn't do this because of the all the work and limited outcome). Most restriction starts at the higher level - units, withdrawals, rules, no attack lines, etc..

[Update]

If you lived in Espoo/Helsinki some 9-10 years ago you could have chance to see me there.

Actually, I did live there at the time. No wonder your picture looked familiar. I must have seen you at the Korkeasaari. (For those not familiar with this, Korkeasaari is the place for Helsinki Zoo)[:D]

Seriously:

1. How can you model AT-gun unit pulled by an armored tractor (Komsomolets w/ 7.62 Degtjarjev)? I know that PzGr squad has internal armor set to 1 but would that work with AT-guns?

You need an new ground element. You may look at the ZiS soviet SP-AT on the tractor's chassis.

Zis is, as you said, SP-AT. I was trying to refer something light this: 50mm PAK 38 pulled by Komsomolets instead of soft-skinned truck. On the second thought, does it make a difference in this game scale, survivability yes, but otherwise?

You need to edit city database in scenario. As for Vyborg, I'm really glad you are not a Romanian patriot who may find some cities with Hungarian names as they were politically under it's authority. You may change city names to whatever you like, but you need to edit map art for the big cities and urban areas.

OK, I will get back to you about this with a couple of map scans and "heated arguments"[:'(] I will also, sorry in advance, try to beat the dead horse by addressing the exact place where the Finnish front should be cut off from the map. (no Murmansk, I promise[:(])

You may use it after repair as with every rail in the game

OK, but is there RR-construction crew somewhere in Finland? Also, situation was quite different from Germans. They did not try to fix the damage (not that hard to do) but they were actually re-gauging the rails to German standard! That is a huge job, which is the reason it is also so slow in the game and rightly so.

5. Is there proper order of listing the composite parts of a unit since the actual listing that you see in the game counters is in a different order from what I put in TOE.

I didn't quite understand the question here. If unit is divided correctly (with appropriate subTo link) they should get highlighted on the map with blue outline

Sorry, hard to explain. Let me try it like this: I make a template TOE and put things in the list in following order (top to bottom) Infantry, Artillery, Support, AT, and AC. Then I start the game and open up an actual unit that uses the template TOE and the list is maybe like this: AC, Infantry, AT, Artillery, Support. Question is: Is there a "proper" listing order from top to bottom for units in the template TOE.

Here is for the lighter side of WITE:

If you spend with game long enough, every second button press should lead to the neck "massage" from your wife or GF

Well, my wife is presently visiting her mom about 7000+ km away and I am alone with our four kids (5-12 years). I am lucky since I can bribe my kids with goodies and DVD's to let me indulge myself with the WITE. On the other hand, when SHE returns I will sue Matrix games for not providing the following label to WITE: "WARNING, this game causes addiction and certain divorce for the users!"[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Helpless]

Actually, I did live there at the time. No wonder your picture looked familiar. I must have seen you at the Korkeasaari. (For those not familiar with this, Korkeasaari is the place for Helsinki Zoo)

Oh yes.. but the biggest "zoo" I've been in Finland was ferry to Stockholm and back. This live prove of Darwinism on water show how it is possible to rewind the whole evolution with cheap booze

Zis is, as you said, SP-AT. I was trying to refer something light this: 50mm PAK 38 pulled by Komsomolets instead of soft-skinned truck. On the second thought, does it make a difference in this game scale, survivability yes, but otherwise?

Well, it all just characteristic of the weapon and devices at the end. The most important to assign them to correct Ground Element Type. SP-AT would be considered as AFV, if you set it as armored car for example, this would be counted ans infantry weapon class and will have different treatment.

OK, I will get back to you about this with a couple of map scans and "heated arguments" I will also, sorry in advance, try to beat the dead horse by addressing the exact place where the Finnish front should be cut off from the map. (no Murmansk, I promise)

Feel free to set and change it to whatever you want in your mod and suggest the fixes for the official data. Baut as said there a plenty hardcoded constrains in the Finnish front.

OK, but is there RR-construction crew somewhere in Finland? Also, situation was quite different from Germans. They did not try to fix the damage (not that hard to do) but they were actually re-gauging the rails to German standard! That is a huge job, which is the reason it is also so slow in the game and rightly so.

There are construction bats which can "fix" the rail. afaik, they are doing quite well to maintain historical advance rate.

Sorry, hard to explain. Let me try it like this: I make a template TOE and put things in the list in following order (top to bottom) Infantry, Artillery, Support, AT, and AC. Then I start the game and open up an actual unit that uses the template TOE and the list is maybe like this: AC, Infantry, AT, Artillery, Support. Question is: Is there a "proper" listing order from top to bottom for units in the template TOE.

No, you can set them in any order and even have gaps. They got sorted in the game based on the types/classes.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

1. How do you define the number of support squads needed (in game terms) in a unit?

It is calculated automatically based on the unit composition.

When is this done? When saving the scenario?

I'm busy changing some Axis Minor OOB's and the Support Squad numbers stay constant even after I reload.

I tried putting in 100 tanks extra without any change occurring.

What should the notional value be? 1 squad/piece of equiptment = 1 Support Squad?

I'm working with the Generic Data file, not the scenario one.

[Helpless]

Requirements are calculated if you change unit composition. You can check it on unit tab. Then it's up to you to choose the appropriate amount of support. It shouldn't always cover, since HQ unit share their support with subordinates.