Totenkopf SS Division

[Walloc]

Termi needs a hug.

/hug Termi

Hope it helps,

Rasmus

[Smirfy]

ORIGINAL: notenome

The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation. As far as I know, the only Waffen-SS unit to commit atrocities in 40 was Totenkopf. As for Tontenkopf's performance, they suposedly fought fanatically, suffered incredibly heavy losses, but that is in great part due to them running headlong into Allied tanks that were impervious to their AT weapons (they improvised and used artillery in a direct fire role, foreshadowing what was to come on the eastern front). They did take 16k prisoners at Cambrai, and by the time of the French surrender they had reached the Spanish border, which is fairly impressive. As for panicking, I don't know of a single combat formation that doesn't have reports of soldiers and officers panicking, especially when the division is green. Just part of the deal.

Nope the SS commited atocities from the get go LSAH murdered British troops at Wormhout 1940
.

[PDiFolco]

ORIGINAL: notenome

The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation. As far as I know, the only Waffen-SS unit to commit atrocities in 40 was Totenkopf. As for Tontenkopf's performance, they suposedly fought fanatically, suffered incredibly heavy losses, but that is in great part due to them running headlong into Allied tanks that were impervious to their AT weapons (they improvised and used artillery in a direct fire role, foreshadowing what was to come on the eastern front). They did take 16k prisoners at Cambrai, and by the time of the French surrender they had reached the Spanish border, which is fairly impressive. As for panicking, I don't know of a single combat formation that doesn't have reports of soldiers and officers panicking, especially when the division is green. Just part of the deal.

DR not only massacred a whole French village, they also repeatedly killed civvies in France. And this village (Oradour) was destroyed just out of death lust, the DR was getting to the front... Read D Day by Beevor.
Overall SS units were routinely guilty of war crimes, in the West too, even if they were no Einsatzgruppen there...

[bairdlander2]

Here is an interesting shirt,they dont sell the previous one anymore which was pretty much the Deathhead skull

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: notenome
The only atrocity I know of Das Reich comiting in France is in 44, the destruction of the village during a partisan hunting operation.

It was not just the destruction of a village, it was the murder of everyone in, or visiting (including the school children), the village. Herding women and children into a church and setting fire to it, shooting people as they tried to escape the flames. However 'murderous' partisan hunting can be, this was something else.

[notenome]

I seem to have been misunderstood, when I said the destruction of a village, I didn't mean only the physical destruction. I simply didn't want to give a vivid acount as I find people are very over eager to post long gory descriptions and personally I find this disrespectful to the victims (I mean no insult to any poster by this). The massacre of 642 civilians at Oradour was defended by Diekmann as retaliation for the death and mutilation of 40 German soldiers by the Marquis. Diekman's orders had been to take the mayor and 30 hostages in order to exchange them for a captured Das Reich officer. That said Diekmann's interpretation of 'anti-partisan operations' seemed to be a step too far even for the German authorities who wanted to persecute him for Oradour (amongst these was Rommel, the Vichy government, Diekmann's own superior Stadler and several others). An investigation was begun but Diekman died in combat before it concluded, and of course there is no guarantee that any measures would have been taken given the bizantine relation of Waffen-SS men and units with regular army authorities.
 
Whilst I certaintly agree that what occured at Oradour was a massacre and a war crime, the murder of civilians was unfortunately regarded as a part of anti-partisan activities by the Axis during World War II. One needs only look at Yugoslavia where the diferent ocupying countries established different rules for civilians death. The Germans determined that for every German soldier killed 20 civilians would die. The Italians determined that for every Italian soldier killed, 100 civilians would die.
 
All of that being said, we seemed to have derailed this thread.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: notenome
All of that being said, we seemed to have derailed this thread.

No criticism of your post intended, just a desire to ensure that the history of that period should not be forgotten. This in no way affects our enjoyment of the game and thanks to the way history worked out, to us it is a game, long may it stay that way. [:)]

Back on the tracks.

[dwesolick]

ORIGINAL: Puhis

All that reminds me of this Mitchell & Webb sketch. They are SS soldiers wondering "why skulls???"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEle_DLDg9Y

That is a hilarious video! This one is pretty good too...Heil Doenitz!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHnyQXyuTGY&feature=related

[turska]

Pretty good overall books about how the 1st & 2nd SS Corps'es did in battle are from Michael Reynolds:
Steel Inferno: I Panzer Corps in Normandy
Men of Steel: 1st SS Panzer Corps, 1944-45 - The Ardennes and Eastern Front
Sons of the Reich: The History of II SS Panzer Corps
And also
The Devil's Adjutant: Jochen Peiper, Panzer Leader

(Also the war crimes are covered in those)

[Speedysteve]

I also think they're a fine set of books by Reynolds.

[Sardaukar]

Also, as minor trivia, when Totenkopf surrendered to US forces, personnel of Totenkopf SS Division was transferred to gentle hands of Soviets (since they fought from 1941 on exclusively on Eastern Front). One can imagine their fate, not that I feel any excessive pity towards them... Divisions like LAH & Das Reich, OTOH were able to surrender to Western Allies and were not deported to Soviet Union.

[raizer]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Also, as minor trivia, when Totenkopf surrendered to US forces, personnel of Totenkopf SS Division was transferred to gentle hands of Soviets (since they fought from 1941 on exclusively on Eastern Front). One can imagine their fate, not that I feel any excessive pity towards them... Divisions like LAH & Das Reich, OTOH were able to surrender to Western Allies and were not deported to Soviet Union.

not totally true...SS Haupststurmfuher Fritz Knochlein (commander of 3rd Kompanie that machine gunned a 100 brits from the Royal Norfolk Regiment outside of La Paradis) was hung by the brits in 1949

[Titanwarrior89]

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

[Adam Parker]

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

1. Soldiers of Desruction - as already mentioned here, the most scholarly coverage of the unit with a no holds barred expose of its operations.

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.

Being an autobiography of the unit though, it is heavy on the "apologetsia" - a desire to paint the unit with an honorable legacy. To this end, the introduction writes; that in addition to wishing to furnish an accurate combat history of the unit:

[center][/center]"This work is not an attempt at justification... We also trust that history will show more justice to the Waffen-SS".

It then goes on to explain that widows of the unit, should not need to feel the urge to take pictures of their husbands off the wall when their grandchildren visit. This is then followed by a lengthy discussion of how many other units in history, have worn the death's head into battle.

Any discussion of the SS is bound bring passionate debate. Here so far, things have been of the scholastic-curious type which I love. Nonetheless, when talking about any single Waffen-SS unit, the 3rd Totenkopf is bound to bring up controversy and as well, imo it should.

Below is a highly reduced pic from "Like a Cliff in the Ocean". If you can afford it and keep a library on military units, I highly recommend this book - but it's best viewed in balance with a resource such as Sydnor's.

[bairdlander2]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

How were the men for the Totenkopf SS Division selected for the unit?

Most likely from prisons and mental institutions[:D]Seriously though it is interesting an American from Kentucky I beleive joined the Waffen SS before the war and fought on the Eastern front,in fact several Americans volunteerd for service in German armed forces.Goddamed traitors.

[bairdlander2]

"Additionally, there were SS units and entire SS 'Foreign Legions' consisting primarily of American, Indian, Arabs, Tartars/Cossacks amongst others. In fact, there was even units, such as SS Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger that accepted persecuted peoples such as Homosexuals, Gypsies and political prisoners. Ultimately, a significant majority (~60%) of men who volunteered and fought with the Waffen SS over the course of the war were not ethnic Germans. The Waffen SS even made allowances for religious traditions and beliefs with specialised uniforms and insignias, as well as providing spiritual guidance and service in non-Christian religions."quote from Wikipedia,not sure about accuracy as those articles can be written by anybody.

[Titanwarrior89]

Thanks for the info Adam.

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

1. Soldiers of Desruction - as already mentioned here, the most scholarly coverage of the unit with a no holds barred expose of its operations.

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.

Being an autobiography of the unit though, it is heavy on the "apologetsia" - a desire to paint the unit with an honorable legacy. To this end, the introduction writes; that in addition to wishing to furnish an accurate combat history of the unit:

[center][/center]"This work is not an attempt at justification... We also trust that history will show more justice to the Waffen-SS".

It then goes on to explain that widows of the unit, should not need to feel the urge to take pictures of their husbands off the wall when their grandchildren visit. This is then followed by a lengthy discussion of how many other units in history, have worn the death's head into battle.

Any discussion of the SS is bound bring passionate debate. Here so far, things have been of the scholastic-curious type which I love. Nonetheless, when talking about any single Waffen-SS unit, the 3rd Totenkopf is bound to bring up controversy and as well, imo it should.

Below is a highly reduced pic from "Like a Cliff in the Ocean". If you can afford it and keep a library on military units, I highly recommend this book - but it's best viewed in balance with a resource such as Sydnor's.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: bairdlander

"Additionally, there were SS units and entire SS 'Foreign Legions' consisting primarily of American, Indian, Arabs, Tartars/Cossacks amongst others.

There was no Waffen SS unit made up primarily of Americans, I know of 8 who fought with various units of the Waffen SS, if you're thinking of the so called George Washington Legion, you're thinking of a totally fictitious unit.

You will also find that the units of Indians, Arabs, & Tartars/Cossacks were Heer units and not Waffen SS.

Regarding the Britisches Freikorps, late in 1945 the British made up the crew of one of the Halftracks in the SS Panzer Aufklarungs Abteilung 11 of the 11th SS Freiwilligen PanzerGrenadier Division "Nordland".

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

And for Titan, here's the prime books on the 3rd SS (there are others but imo not as inclusive as these):

2. Like a Cliff in the Ocean - a darned expensive "autobiography" of the unit, heavily supported by gloss pictorials, color situational maps, OOB's and eye-witness action reports throughout. It's a large-sized tome of quality gloss paper stock. This is a Fedorowicz publication and may soon be out of print, hence the cost - but it is a quality publication.

Like a Cliff in the Ocean is an English translation of the original Wie Ein Fels im Meer by Karl Ullrich, it was originally in two volumes, the 2nd volume being the "im Bild" (in pictures) volume and is an excellent book for those interested in pictures/photos of the Totenkopf.

French publisher Histoire & collections have recently brought out 'SS Totenkopf France 1940'. It is a photo book but is interesting in that it is:

" a faithful reproduction of a rare and valuable work - a collection of photographs of the SS Totenkopf Division in 1940: armoured columns, troops in action, river crossings, scenes of everyday life, French and British soldiers surrendering. The original Damals (which translates as ""back then"") was a remembrance book of ""The Great Days of the SS-Totenkopf Division battling through France in 1940"" by SS war correspondents Ege, Bauer and Bonda, and printed for the SS Fuhrungshauptamt in Berlin in 1941."

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SS-Totenkopf-France-Eric-Lefevre/dp/2352501156/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293411833&sr=1-4


Heimdal have also recently produced an excellent book on the Totenkopf by author Charles Trang

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Totenkopf-Charles-Trang/dp/2840481715/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293412093&sr=1-2

[bairdlander2]

None of this matters they were scumbags and lowlife pure and simple and if I was back there and captured anyone of them I would execute them on the spot