Surrounded units are too weak-seems ahistorical

[xmas]

I confirm that seem unistorical. The soviet sorrounded pockets, was knew as "mobile" pockets: the reds (not all obviusly) fighting looking to turn back in friendly line. (and ... to wait their return in friendly line was NKVD commisars with a bullet ready for head of everyone return save ... but it´s another discuss ...).

So the sequence was in 1941 first months: "reds" frontline troops pulled in the east, "fritz" front line troops pulling to the east, "fritz" sorrounding forces pulled in the east, "reds" sorrounded forces in pockets pulling to the east.

But in my first game as "blacks" , I quickly destroyed reds force in pockets, and then columns of infantry units walking ALONE in the east with no fighting till frontline, ... very unistorical.

I don´t want say the game don´t work. The game it´s good (I love it), but don´t work in historical mode.
The losses at the end of 1941 will be same as in the history, but the meccanhic is different from history.

May be that the sorrounded troops get more resistence, and sorrounding troops will gain more moblity points to regain the more time spended to encircle and keeping close the enemy ?

(my english it´s a sh..)

[Zemke]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

The 'Pocket' at Stalingrad lasted MONTHS (late Nov 42 to mid feb 43). Some of the stories from the 6th Army were nearly unbelievable.

True, but the Soviets did not make a concerted effort to destroy the pocket. They were satisfied with containment and chose to drive further east and attempt to cut off Army Group A in the south.

[Redmarkus5]

A WW2 strategic simulation/game dealing strictly with war in Russia, but which has NOT been designed to allow a pocket such as the one at Stalingrad to form and last for 3-4 months??? I have a three letter acronym for that; it begins with W and ends with F and a ?.

And what about the Demyansk pocket? 47 days of hell on earth with concerted Soviet attacks throughout.

Comments anyone? Am I crazy insane or just unreasonable?

[Redmarkus5]

I pocketed these German elite units at the end of the last turn. At the start of the very next next turn (i.e. they have been surrounded for 7 days) their combat values have already fallen 90%!

How many Soviet units do I have permission to attack them with and get a 'historical' HELD result? These guys are likely to surrender to my RR repair units

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: Wild

I agree with comradeP on this.
I have not noticed anything seriously amiss. Of course there might be the odd anomaly as no system is perfect. I think it is way too early to start changing fundamental mechanics of the game, that can't be properly judged until more people have made it into '43 and '44 and report their findings.

We are not asking for a change of the "fundamental mechanics" of the game - just a sensible discussion about why elite units have a CV drop of 90% in a week, when historically the Germans were famed for being to fight their way out of Soviet pockets.

We discuss, we think about ways to improve an already great game, we share those thoughts with the devs. They decide what to do in response to this customer feedback.

For that process to work, however, we need to be able to accept that things are not yet perfect. They will in future be if we keep making our points.

[xmas]

For REDMARKUS4

you are not crazy insane, YOU ARE RIGHT !!!

The pocket side in this conflict are too much important.

[Pford]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

Comments anyone? Am I crazy insane or just unreasonable?

Agreed....that you're not unreasonable.
Elite, 'read German', units should show more dogged resilience when isolated. Surrounded Soviets collapsing like house of cards, OK. But, OTOH, didn't those guys in Brest-Litovsk hold out for months?

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
A WW2 strategic simulation/game dealing strictly with war in Russia, but which has NOT been designed to allow a pocket such as the one at Stalingrad to form and last for 3-4 months??? I have a three letter acronym for that; it begins with W and ends with F and a ?.

And what about the Demyansk pocket? 47 days of hell on earth with concerted Soviet attacks throughout.

Comments anyone? Am I crazy insane or just unreasonable?

Certainly the encirclement operation is one of the most significant features of war in the east and needs to be well modelled. I am still in the scenarios and so far it's working reasonably well, especially as I become better at forming encirclements. There are still issues with units beaming out of pockets, but I believe that is under revue.

How difficult is it to model the changing character of German and Russian forces over the period 41-45, guess it's no easy task.

Progress is made by discussion and example, the more the better. [:)]

[Redmarkus5]

The last defenders of Brest held out until January 1942 IIRC. And they were being hunted down like rats - not left to sun themselves

Here's an example that should interest you. This 'pocket' formed all by itself - ghost warriors. I have had no gaps in my line and I didn't encircle these guys. They just appeared like magic!

[Redmarkus5]

As I review that post I do see a small gap in my line to the north, which is unusual for me. However, there's no way that these pocketed units made their way down from there...

[Great_Ajax]

Actually, the Brest fortress fell on 30 June. Survivors continued to resist as partisans to the east of the city.

Trey

[Great_Ajax]

Also, my next project is to get the Uranus scenario in shape which should be a good test case for how it works out.

Trey

[Pford]

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
How difficult is it to model the changing character of German and Russian forces over the period 41-45, guess it's no easy task.

For encirclements? I suppose you modify the CV of isolated units, up or down, by tying it to their MORALE rating.

[Redmarkus5]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Actually, the Brest fortress fell on 30 June. Survivors continued to resist as partisans to the east of the city.

Trey

I've checked my sources and you're correct. There was a 'last survivor' who was captured in the fortress in April 1942, which stuck in my memory, but even I wouldn't try to classify him as a 'pocket'

[Flaviusx]

The Germans were famed for fighting their way out of Soviet pockets?

If anything it was the other way around. German pockets tended to leak more than Soviet ones. (Mostly due to their perennial shortage of infantry.)

The few instances where German pockets did hold out for some time are due to certain exceptional circumstances that had nothing to do with their alleged ability to fight their way out. Certainly we didn't see any great mass of Germans escaping from Stalingrad.

[Redmarkus5]

I thought we weren't using Stalingrad as a reference because the game can't model it???

[Flaviusx]

I thought we were talking about the legendary German ability to fight their way out of Soviet pockets. Which mostly didn't happen. I'm referring to Stalingrad here somewhat ironically, but if you want, we can just as easily talk about Bagration, among other things.

[Great_Ajax]

Bagration would be a mixed bag to talk about escaping pockets. LIII Corps and XXXV Corps were surrounded and utterly destroyed in about a week. I think it was the 12th Panzer Division that just managed to escape the Bobriusk pocket with a supported attack from the 20th Panzer Division outside the pocket.

Trey

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I thought we were talking about the legendary German ability to fight their way out of Soviet pockets. Which mostly didn't happen. I'm referring to Stalingrad here somewhat ironically, but if you want, we can just as easily talk about Bagration, among other things.

[Flaviusx]

Trey, on the whole, the Germans were crushed utterly. Two dozen divisions wiped out. An entire army group gone, more or less. 450,000 lost by mid July and about 100,000 more in the following weeks.

The exploits of any single division need to be kept in perspective here. Same logic applies to various future offensives, particularly Vistula Oder where a great deal has been made about a few German remnants that managed to get out and somehow the larger picture gets lost.

This is not any more significant than, say, Boldin's escapades in 1941.

[amatteucci]

In my current game I experienced very different behaviour of pocketed German units.
In summer turns, when reducing unentrenched units I experienced no difficulty whatsoever in pushing aside enemy divisions and have them surrender when unable to retreat. This even when attacking a Panzerdivision with a single Rifle Division.

Now it's October '42 and am trying to reduce a pocket near the Peipus lake. The pocket is smaller than the ones I eliminated during the summer and the unit it contains are not crack or élite.
Well, it's three turns that I'm trying to eliminate the pocket but, with the exception of a single stack, the defenders are holding their ground! The most obvious difference (apart from the mud) is that they have level 3 or 4 entrenchments. It seems that heavily entrenched isolated unit are able to routinely repel deliberate assaults that had no problem in tearing up unentrenched isolated defenders.

Did someone experience similar results?