Generic Data vs Scenario Data

[bcgames]

Are the following statements true?

1. Generic Data files are:

Leaders
TOE(OB)
Aircraft
Ground Elements
Devices

To edit these Generic Data files and have the edit "stick", you must Load, Edit, and Save in the Generic Data Editor mode. You cannot edit Units, Air Groups, and Locations using the Generic Data Editor mode; if you do, all edits will be lost.

2. Scenario Specific Data files are:

Units
Air Groups
Locations

To edit these Scenario Specific Data files and have the edit "stick", you must Load, Edit, and Save in the Scenario Specific Data Editor mode. You cannot edit Leaders, TOE(OB), Aircraft, Ground Elements, and Devices using the Scenario Specific Data Editor Mode; if you do, all edits will be lost.

[Iron Duke]

1. yes

2. yes

wish it were simpler

[Helpless]

Yes, absolutely correct.

We used to have generic unit, groups, city files. They are still loading, but not maintained anymore.

[Helpless]

wish it were simpler

Make your suggestion, just provide simple way to maintain changes across dozen of scenarios.

[Iron Duke]

ok but understand i'm clueless about programming[&:]

Lock down the Generic Data files to the official scenario's that come with the game or are added via official patches.no modding possible[:-]

but

if somebody renames a scenario (to mod)then the program copies the generic data files and unlocks those for the modder to play with. the 'unlocked 'generic files would be matched to the modded scenario only.

Every modded scenario would have it's own 'Generic Data'

further data updates would only affect the core scenarios and core generic data. .exe updates would cover all .

Probably a bitch to implement but ......... i can dream

after all i've been dreaming of this game since the early 80's and i got my wish[:D]

[Helpless]

Do I get it right that your biggest concern that your modded generic data files can get overwritten when you install official update?

Having an ability to load generic data files form "mod" folder wouldn't be a big problem. However having both generic and scenario data available for the change and link them to every scenario is not that simple without creating extra data related bugs.

Editor is not in its final shapes, but it is hard to go against the logic of the game's data . I know it may look not logical to somebody, but this is not unique to this particular piece of software.

[Iron Duke]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Do I get it right that your biggest concern that your modded generic data files can get overwritten when you install official update?

No - keeping 'core data and scenarios' seperate and locked would allow you to update as you do now -- Updates would only be applied to core data files , i use a seperate copy of generic and scenario data files for modding . And would add data updates manually into my modded files.

Having an ability to load generic data files form "mod" folder wouldn't be a big problem. However having both generic and scenario data available for the change and link them to every scenario is not that simple without creating extra data related bugs.

As i said not being a Programmer means i have no idea if my suggestions are do'able but what you don't ask for you don't get[:D]

Editor is not in its final shapes, but it is hard to go against the logic of the game's data . I know it may look not logical to somebody, but this is not unique to this particular piece of software.

I would have liked a system much the same a used in WitP where all the data files are intergrated into the 'scenario file' ...but i can live with what we've got , i don't want to make the job harder for you than it already is

And thank for taking the time to answer[&o]

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

1. yes

2. yes

Thanks Iron Duke and Pavel.

Continuing...

Given the above answers, is it reasonable to assume that any changes made and saved while in the Scenario Data Editor Mode to the Units, Air Groups, and/or Locations data files are imbedded in--and localized to--the scenario file (.SCN) located in the scen folder of the game directory? IOW, the data changes made to these files while in Scenario Data Editor Mode are NOT global and therefore cannot influence any other scenario. Correct?

[Great_Ajax]

Correct. You know if you really wanted to you could create your own custom devices, OBs, leaders, etc. while you are editing your scenario and those custom 'mods' will be saved to the scenario data and not the generic data. If you wanted to use those files for another scenario, all you would have to do is import them into your new scenario CSV files. This has the benefit of having your own custom files but are specific to each scenario without impacting the generic data.

Trey

ORIGINAL: bcgames

ORIGINAL: Iron Duke

1. yes

2. yes

Thanks Iron Duke and Pavel.

Continuing...

Given the above answers, is it reasonable to assume that any changes made and saved while in the Scenario Data Editor Mode to the Units, Air Groups, and/or Locations data files are imbedded in--and localized to--the scenario file (.SCN) located in the scen folder of the game directory? IOW, the data changes made to these files while in Scenario Data Editor Mode are NOT global and therefore cannot influence any other scenario. Correct?

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Correct. You know if you really wanted to you could create your own custom devices, OBs, leaders, etc. while you are editing your scenario and those custom 'mods' will be saved to the scenario data and not the generic data. If you wanted to use those files for another scenario, all you would have to do is import them into your new scenario CSV files. This has the benefit of having your own custom files but are specific to each scenario without impacting the generic data.

This is sounding good. How do I do this in light of the answers given for questions 1 and 2 posted above? IOW, what procedure do I need to follow to accomplish what you have proposed here?

[Great_Ajax]

My recommendation is that if you want to build up any custom leader, devices, OBs, etc. is to start a new scenario and name the scenario 'Trey's Custom Mod' or something like that and then save it as a scenario. When you edit locations, leaders, TOE(OB), Ground Elem, Aircraft, Devices and save the scenario, it will save your custom work into this scenario file and not the generic data. This 'mod' will be nothing more than a scenario file that you use a base library for your future work. Then export this mod data from the CSV tab to CSV files and the editor will create individual 'Trey's Custom Mod' files for all of those different sections. Here's the part that gets difficult to explain. When you are ready to build your new scenario with your new 'mod' CSVs, first start by making your new scenario skeleton and saving it to say 'Korsun '44' and then export those CSV files. Make a copy of your mod CSVs and rename them to your new scenario. When you open up your Korsun scenario, it will load up your custom mod data. Now, all of your custom data is saved into the scenario and you don't have to jack with the generic files.

Remember that anytime you make changes in the TOE(OB) tab, you will have to manually rebuild all of the affected units in the UNITS tab for those changes to take effect.

Trey

ORIGINAL: bcgames

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Correct. You know if you really wanted to you could create your own custom devices, OBs, leaders, etc. while you are editing your scenario and those custom 'mods' will be saved to the scenario data and not the generic data. If you wanted to use those files for another scenario, all you would have to do is import them into your new scenario CSV files. This has the benefit of having your own custom files but are specific to each scenario without impacting the generic data.

This is sounding good. How do I do this in light of the answers given for questions 1 and 2 posted above? IOW, what procedure do I need to follow to accomplish what you have proposed here?

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

...When you open up your Korsun scenario, it will load up your custom mod data. Now, all of your custom data is saved into the scenario and you don't have to jack with the generic files...

Trey,

I'm tracking.

Now, if I have done everything as you have described, and I send you ONLY my Korsun.SCN and Korsun.txt file then you should be able to load and play the scenario using exactly the same data that I designed it with--correct?

[Helpless]

Now, if I have done everything as you have described, and I send you ONLY my Korsun.SCN and Korsun.txt file then you should be able to load and play the scenario using exactly the same data that I designed it with--correct?

No. Currently game loads generic data with scn files. So you should provide them as well if there were any relevant changes.

As I understand what Trey is describing is the workaround to export your generic data changes when you work with scenario, i.e. without explicitly editing scenario, but you still need those modified generic data files.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

...but you still need those modified generic data files.

...Which requires the user to swap out his stock generic files for my modified generic files in order to play my scenario. And then swap them out again to go back to playing the stock scenarios...or someone else's modified generic files. Core data-based scenarios are the way to go to keep it simple for the user; file swapping in any game is a low-participation sport.

Thanks Pavel. You have answered my question.

[Great_Ajax]

Sorry bcgames. The data structure must have changed since the last time I fooled around with this.

Trey

[shane56]

Evening all,
first of this is a good game, but to me at least it would seem little thought was put into how to manage the modding of scenarios, as I stated in another thread, you have to edit the core files to makes changes stick.
When the developers make changes, and rightly so they should, if these changes involve the core files then any thing we do to them will be lost, a no brainer.
So the conundrum is that we have to edit these files to do what we want to do, and will in all likely hood loose what we have done, ie.. all our hard work.

I currently do all my additions at the bottom of the files, worked so far for me as I know where everything is, but this does not cover me if I have to edit an existing element in it's original slot.

Having to distribute a scenario along with a set of modified core files will not work in the long term, will lead to all sorts of problems and complaints, like them not being copied in, or being left in place when loading up another scenario etc etc.

One way would be for the user to have his/her own core files which I mentioned previously in another thread, which only contain the additons or changes in them which would get loaded in over the generic core files and only replacing the items in them. Instead of having 8000 slots in a csv file you would have only the slot numbers for the existing or added items and then only these would be copied in over the same slot numbers in the scen/game core files, with nothing else being altered. Could this be done???

Thanks ..shane

[Rosseau]

Personally, I prefer changing out files manually when modding, especially when there really are so few to swap out in WitE. Every modder will tell you to back up your original files just in case anyway. Of course, I could see some clueless person blaming you for messing up their game files. I already have several mods in place with WitE, and pretty easy to manage. Glad people are interested in maturing the system, though.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: shane_056

Having to distribute a scenario along with a set of modified core files will not work in the long term, will lead to all sorts of problems and complaints, like them not being copied in, or being left in place when loading up another scenario etc etc.

Correct--No good deed shall go unpunished.