Tanks for the Memories: Questions on Axis Tanks so far!

[Q-Ball]

A few questions that I have on Axis Tank production and replacements:

Nobody said this, but apparently the ROMANIANS get pretty much nothing for tank replacements for awhile. Don't use the Romanian Arm Div in any kind of combat. You will run out of tanks. Is that what others find?

The HUNGARIAN tank units, for whatever reason, do not draw from the piles of TURAN tanks in the pool, but wait for Panzer 38(t)s instead to be exported. Is that the case? Not sure why, the TURAN is about equally crappy.....

The TIGER is produced in much greater numbers than you have TOE slots for. As a result, they accumulate in the pool, doing not much. Too bad, as you need them in the field.

The AI is pretty aggressive, it seems, at retiring older Panzer III types (e,g,h), but keeps the 38(t) in the field for a long time.

The Marder III is initially called the Panzerjaeger 38(t), then only later when the fighting compartment is moved to the rear is it finally called a Marder III. Is this historical?

What happens to the Flamm Panzer Bns when all the Flamm Panzer IIs die? (Which for me was Winter '41). There is no Flamm Panzer until early 1943, when you get a few IIIs. Also, the Flamm Panzer Bns have a very large CV, even though historically the Flamm Panzer concept was considered a failure. Thoughts?

Is there a replacement for the sIG33 before the Grille? Waiting is an awful long stretch.

[ComradeP]

Unfortunately, Romanian tank production is indeed minimal early on, so use it at your own risk. Mine was already essentially out of tanks after its first attack, even though the attack was successful.

In my version, the Turan's a medium tank like the Panzer 38(t) so there should be no difference, maybe there was a bug that was fixed since the last patch.

You can use the Tiger for the rest of the war after it starts being produced, so any surplus you see will probably be consumed at some later stage.

The AI might retire the Panzer III's earlier than the Panzer 38(t)'s because they become obsolete earlier on, as the Panzer 38(t)E is still being produced in 1942.

I started a debate about whether an additional Marder type should be added, but currently there's still a certain abstraction of 1 type.

The Flamm Panzer battalions should withdraw, but I can see the problem if they can't get any replacements and they're below 75% TOE.

The sIG33 is just the infantry gun, which is produced normally with armament points. You mean the sIG33-on-tracks, which indeed doesn't get replacements for a pretty long while. The model between what you start with and what you get later on went to the DAK.

[Q-Ball]

In game terms the Marder abstraction is fine, since they were all very close in combat capabilities, even though they came from several different chassis (Lorraines,PzII,Czech38)

The TURAN is a medium tank in mine as well, I don't know why it won't draw in numbers to the Hungarian Armor. I probably shouldn't complain, since only 1 Hungarian Armored Div is really supposed to be at the front, but the other will only draw 22 Turans, and leave the large Medium tank slot empty. The pool of Turans is large. Too bad we can't give some to the Romanians.....

[ComradeP]

but the other will only draw 22 Turans, and leave the large Medium tank slot empty

22 Turans or Toldis?

[Q-Ball]

Each Hungarian Armor Division is drawing 22 ea of the Toldi and Turan, and staying at that number despite losses. No problem there.

It appears that the '42 TOE for Hungarian Arm Divisions is 22 Toldi, 22 Turan I, and 89 38(t)Es. As Hungary has to borrow these from the Germans, and German Panzer units are also requesting them, it is almost impossible to get the 2 Hungarian armored units up to Tank Strength. This despite the presence of Piles of TURAN I in the pool, and a growing Pile of TURAN II. The TURAN II, with a short 75mm gun, is at least a pretty good infantry tank.

Not really complaining, as I should only have 1 Hungarian Div in Russia anyway (I'm sure that will get fixed), but just trying to figure out how replacements work.

How do EXPORTS work to Axis Minor Allies?

[ComradeP]

I just noticed that Romanian tank pools are actually fairly decent and should keep your armour going, so even though they'll run out of tanks after a few attacks, they'll get them back.

Exports happen when a certain number of vehicles/planes build up in the German pool after which some are exported, up to a certain fixed number, they shouldn't be variable.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I just noticed that Romanian tank pools are actually fairly decent and should keep your armour going, so even though they'll run out of tanks after a few attacks, they'll get them back.

[&:]At the start of the 1941 Campaign, the Romanian Tank Pool is empty, and the R-2 and R-35 are not in production. There are no replacements at all that I can see.

Am I missing something? (which is quite possible).

[ComradeP]

Edit, I've found the explanation: the Romanian armoured division is heavily overloaded in terms of tanks at the start of the 1941 campaign, so about half its tanks are returned to the pool.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

A few questions that I have on Axis Tank production and replacements:

Nobody said this, but apparently the ROMANIANS get pretty much nothing for tank replacements for awhile. Don't use the Romanian Arm Div in any kind of combat. You will run out of tanks. Is that what others find?

The HUNGARIAN tank units, for whatever reason, do not draw from the piles of TURAN tanks in the pool, but wait for Panzer 38(t)s instead to be exported. Is that the case? Not sure why, the TURAN is about equally crappy.....

The TIGER is produced in much greater numbers than you have TOE slots for. As a result, they accumulate in the pool, doing not much. Too bad, as you need them in the field.

The AI is pretty aggressive, it seems, at retiring older Panzer III types (e,g,h), but keeps the 38(t) in the field for a long time.

The Marder III is initially called the Panzerjaeger 38(t), then only later when the fighting compartment is moved to the rear is it finally called a Marder III. Is this historical?

What happens to the Flamm Panzer Bns when all the Flamm Panzer IIs die? (Which for me was Winter '41). There is no Flamm Panzer until early 1943, when you get a few IIIs. Also, the Flamm Panzer Bns have a very large CV, even though historically the Flamm Panzer concept was considered a failure. Thoughts?

Is there a replacement for the sIG33 before the Grille? Waiting is an awful long stretch.

As the person responsible for developing the ground elements and TOEs I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

The Rumanians didn't really have a domestic tank industry. They acquired tanks from foreign sources and in some cases modified them but didn't actually build tanks themselves from the ground up. I would recommend not using the Rumanian armored division past the summer of 1941 (there is no point in saving the crap it comes with) and keeping it in reserve until late 1942. It can garrison a city just as well as anything else.

If you examine the TOEs, you will see that the Turans don't come into widespread use until 1943.

The Tiger surplus is an unavoidable consequence of how the production system works. Except for the first few turns of production, the number produced each turn is constant but their use in the field isn't. It won't be until 1943 that Tigers see a lot of use but their production begins in July of 1942.

What gets swapped out and what doesn't is always a mystery but if you are referring to the Panzer 38(t)E the most likely explanation is that it is still in production while the early Panzer IIIs aren't. As for the basic Panzer 38(t) only God and Gary know why that hangs around.

If you look at the armor ratings you will see that the Panzerjager 38 and the Marder III are different. The Panzerjager 38 is basically the Panzer 38 tank with the turret removed and the Soviet 76.2mm field gun (later German 75mm) mounted on top of the hull. The Marder III has a re-designed hull and less armor in addition to the fighting compartment being moved to the rear. They could have both been called Marder III but Joel didn't want two different vehicles with the same name.

I believe if a support unit goes to zero strength it is withdrawn from the game but don't quote me on that. As for the Flammpanzer II itself, it wasn't the concept of flamethrower tank that was wrong (indeed, everyone used them) but the choice of the Panzer II chassis for this role. The Panzer II was just too thinly armored to function in this kind of close combat role. As for its combat value, that comes from having flamethrowers but remember that these are essentially point blank range weapons. The Flammpanzer IIs will probably have to survive at least one round of combat before they even have a chance to use the flamethrowers. I seriously doubt they are as effective as they appear from the CV.

The sIG33s were all built in 1940 and no replacement for them was build until 1943. For this reason I did not make the sIG33 organic to the panzer division but created independent companies (which is how they were organized historically) attached to the panzer divisions that had them going into Barbarossa. As a player I would recommend removing them from the panzer divisions and attaching them at corps level which should preserve them longer.

Jim Wirth

[Q-Ball]

Good notes Jim, thanks! Or TANKS!

All I know is that I would definitely NOT want to be a Flamm Panzer II crew member when it takes a hit. BOOM!

Probably it was chosen, because it was already obsolete, and Germans were figuring out different uses for the Chassis.

[ComradeP]

Hmm, Jim, which units will use the Flamm Panzer III's? In the 1943 campaigns, some divisions have them but I don't think they organically belong in their TOE. The 3 Flamm Panzer battalions the Germans start with withdraw in November 1941, so what happens with the rest of the flame tanks?

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Hmm, Jim, which units will use the Flamm Panzer III's? In the 1943 campaigns, some divisions have them but I don't think they organically belong in their TOE. The 3 Flamm Panzer battalions the Germans start with withdraw in November 1941, so what happens with the rest of the flame tanks?

According to Thomas Jentz, Panzertruppen, Vol. 2, pp. 48-50, a flame tank platoon with 7 Pz III (Fl) (Sd. Kfz. 141) was to be cooperated into the Panzerdivision 1943, or more precisely into those Panzerabteilungen (tank bats.) which were to be newly constituted or refilled by special order.
Thus the flame tank platoon was listed in the K.St.N 1190 (Kriegsstärkenachweis, "war-time strength certificate", OOB), Jan. 25 1943.

So, IRL probably only a few Panzerdivision fielded one of those "special platoons".

Regards

[ComradeP]

As I said, there are some in the game at the start of the 1943 campaign, but I can't find any TOE's that include flame tanks aside from the Flamm Panzer battalions in 1941.

[jaw]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Hmm, Jim, which units will use the Flamm Panzer III's? In the 1943 campaigns, some divisions have them but I don't think they organically belong in their TOE. The 3 Flamm Panzer battalions the Germans start with withdraw in November 1941, so what happens with the rest of the flame tanks?

I put the Flammpanzer IIIs in the 1943 TOE of Grossdeutschland. Although they were also issued to the 6th and 11th Panzer divisions I ignored that and just gave them just to GD. Fourteen per division just seemed pointless.