On ship repairment rate...again...

[mogami]

Originally posted by SoulBlazer
I do have a beef, Mogami -- if there is indeed a point limit (I assume you mean victory points) on how many ships are allowed by each side during each sec, why don't they TELL us that?

Someone else mentioned how some players have a edge in this area because they talked to people who worked on the game. It's true!

Matrix should include in the manual or somewhere else the max points allowed on the map for each player for each sec. That will really help in deciding what to send back.

I never send anything back unless either System or Float damage is over 50 for that reason, and as soon as damage gets under 20 she goes back into action if I need her. I just don't see a point in sending anything back if I don't get replacement ships.

Hi, well in short battles where no replacments arrive you can't send ships back so no matter. In long scenarios you watch the
LOW MODERATE HIGH, ship message and know how close you are (no matter what the ceiling is) If the high and mighty send you a CV 2 CA and 8 DD and the message goes from high to moderate?.
As for sitting on ships damaged over 50 you are making a self fullfilling prophecy. If level of probable arrival is LOW (meaning you exceed or are close to exceeding limit, sitting on damaged ships is one way to insure no new ships arrive.
I am I admit prehaps explaining this poorly or incorrectly.
You are a theatre commander. Not supreme commander. Your nation has other irons in the fire besides yours.
Every ship under your command is on LOAN!!! It is not your permenant property. The Level of commitment (chosen by you before you begin game reflects the overall importance your nation considers your efforts to be)I'm assuming you pick "variable"
It is not automatic if you are 1k under level to get 1k ships (if available) dispatched. Only it will never happen if you equal or exceed the level.
So sitting on damaged ships prevents new ones from being sent.
If the ship you are sitting on will repair before end of campaign.
And it is a type where no replacement is available (or will arrive at home port before end of campaign) then sitting on it is a point for debate. However if you sit on a BB while another BB is back at home. And the point spread is too small for higher HQ to release another BB then you are the problem. (Yes I know, you send damaged BB home and HQ sends 3 AV 2 TK 5 SC 1 PG 3 SS and what not-ships you don't need. and still has that BB sitting there.)
It is not just damaged ships, or point totals. The player must from time to time examine what ships he has under his control.
Decide just what he requires and send all the rest back.
(scary is it not?)
In roughly 2 weeks time many new ships will begin arriving.
Examine them and send what you don't want home. This is not gaming the system. It is using the system rather then being used by it. If you get a ship you like and have a use for keep it.
If you plan on 3 months quiet build up, (this is allies early in most long scenarios) And only have 2 bases you are moving supply to. You really do not need 60 transports. Start returning them as they get 4-10 system damage. Make TF's of ships with same load and speed and return those that do not fit in.
(you do not need 3k tranports to supply advanced bases.
They are too valuable. Take too long to load/unload. They are great for supply to secure bases with suitable ports. But as player you know there will be no need for them for several months. Send them home. (I prefer 2 x1.5k ships to 1x3k)
If you don't have a some what steady flow of ships coming and going you are not in sync with system.

Do not horde ships. Build up amounts when you are planning to use them and return excess/unwanted/damaged ships when you have no need.

Each base requires an amount of supply per day. It does not take too long to discover how long it takes to turn a convoy around between supply base and use point. You can figure out how many ships this requires. Keep a few in reserve. With proper use the system will provide new ships quite often.
Ships that gain experiance (and the damage that goes with this learning) Should be sent home to allow a fresh ship to arrive. At some point you will have a system providing repaired, upgraded and experianced ships. If you stall the rotation process and then later need to obtain replacments you get nothing but untrained ships.

I am refering to the 610 turn scenarios. 100 turns is nothing to worry about (average CV damage 30 (no floation) returned requires around 100 days before it is again ready at Tokyo/PH
To sit on a ship that need 3 months at major yard to repair because you may not get a replacment is silly. If you get nothing it is because HQ considers you to have enough (too much already)
If you get "the wrong ships" then send them back.

Really I must misunderstand, because what I am understanding is
"I keep a ship I can't use because HQ might send me another ship I can't use"
"I keep a ship I can't use because I need it too much"
"I keep a ship I can't use because it's gamey to send it back"

"People who know the system have an edge" (look the game every time you click on ship available tells you the likely hood of ships being sent. You can figure out what you have on map...right???? you can see what is sitting back at home....right???? you can see when every friggin ship is going to arrive back home.......right????? OK now this is where needing inside info confuses me.
HIGH, MODERATE, LOW likelyhood of ship being sent
If HIGH, don't have a cow. HQ will send the next ships that arrive when escorts avaialble.

MODERATE, well this is the tricky one......Something is going to be sent. Don't know what, don't know when but something sometime is coming.

LOW...forget it. Don't wait for HQ. Plan with what you got.
or........start sending that junk your not using, sitting on while repairing, back to get the rating to change from LOW to Moderate.
Send enough back to get to high, (whatever you sent back won't be what you get back)

OK?

[SoulBlazer]

Well, at least your post was nice, Mogami, so I'll respond to yours.

For the record, although I have only been playing the game for a month, I read the forums EVERY day. I was just trying to say I wanted more insight on the caps (both players have that fairly) so it can help with damaged ships.

I've tried to send damaged ships back in some test games aganist the AI on long secs (15 and 19), and never get anything sent back, even if replacment is on high. That's when I started to really wonder about the whole replacement system. I'd rather park the ship in a Level 9 port and hope I get lucky. If new ships suddenly come down the pipe, fine, then I'll send it back.

But sending back two carriers, four heavy cruisers, and 12 destroyers as the Allies over a course of six months and only getting one heavy cruiser and 4 destroyers back in return REALLY hurt. (And yes, the rate was HIGH)

[mogami]

Hi, For the record I've been playing since May and I can't say what the actual values or dates for ship commitment are.
While I'm at it, I'll say I know the Japanese start high and then go down. The Allies start low and then go up.
I didn't need the manual or a forum post for this knowledge.
Most of the players pick scenario 17 or 19 because of this.
Don't select "variable" and leave setting on 100 then ships show up when they actually did. (and you need never worry about sending one home)


Don't think of a ship listed as "At Pearl Harbor" as tied up to a dock at Pearl Harbor, rather think of it as belonging to CINCPAC it might be busy somewhere. The ships not at Pearl Harbor often are not even commisioned yet. Variable is how hard it is to convince CINCPAC that you actually need the new ship (even if points would allow it) The "variable" setting besides altering the arrival at home date also alters the "dispatch" with which they are sent.

[XPav]

Originally posted by SoulBlazer

I've tried to send damaged ships back in some test games aganist the AI on long secs (15 and 19), and never get anything sent back, even if replacment is on high. That's when I started to really wonder about the whole replacement system. I'd rather park the ship in a Level 9 port and hope I get lucky. If new ships suddenly come down the pipe, fine, then I'll send it back.

Playing as allies vs the AI, I had high comittment level, plenty of carriers in Pearl, and they wouldn't give me squat beside CVEs. Didn't send anything for months.

Now, it wasn't too bad, since I had sunk most of the IJN. I actually think there's a modifier in there for the amount of stuff that your opponent has.

There's some information I'm not getting though. The system is not fully document in the manual. It just says that the reinforcement rates "generally" start high for IJN and go down, and low for Allies and go up.

But still, the system is strange. If USN/IJN command can withhold ships, they **** well can take ships. What happened after Coral Sea? All the CVs were pulled to Midway.

The problem is that this is hard to do in terms of gameplay. I think players would be pissed if their task forces all of a sudden steamed off the map with nothing they could do about it.

Players are in control of one half of ship allocation -- when in life, they could scream and yell and bitch but if Nimitz wanted one, he could take it away. In the game, the player doesn't have to give up any ships he doesn't want to.

The system is gamey because it doesn't accurately simulate naval deployments. Because we don't have enough information about ships that we can get, players are forced to hoard ships on the theory that a damaged carrier is better than no carrier.

Its a game, but don't try to make it realistic, cuz it ain't.

[HARD_SARGE]

Hi Pawlock

Capital ships like Cv's and BB's witjout an escort. So if had no DD's available and ready at said ports then chances are no Capital ship committal. Now perhaps if you had sent those DD's back a few weeks before in order for them to be used as Escorts for Capital ships later on

well had to go do some checking to see the numbers

PH has 4 CVE's, 3 BB's, 5 CA's, 4 CL's, 14 DD's

so I think it had the escorts if it had wanted to send me any major ships

I was off a little on what I did get sent to me, PH sent me 4 AK's not 2 TK's

and that should of been on 13 Dec 1942

HARD_Sarge

[dtx]

"The system is gamey because it doesn't accurately simulate naval deployments. Because we don't have enough information about ships that we can get, players are forced to hoard ships..." --- If we knew exactly when and which ship reinforcements we could get, wouldn't that be more "gamey?"

Consider: Were the actual theater commanders omnipotent/ omniscient? - did they know all the ships in the Pacific, their deployments and could they dictate which reinforcements they received? I think not. Like Xpav noted, ships were taken from commanders, but I'm glad the UV doesn't force this, but rather encourages the player to send unused ships back (to me this approach is a great piece of thinking by the programmers)

Also, war is far from perfect. Theaters that needed desparate reinforcements sometimes got them, sometimes not. Which commanders got what was part internal politics & part need.

History is replete with examples of commanders who hoarded items based on concerns that they wouldn't receive future replacements.