Please Gary do not listen to them...........

[501waff]

Firstly, let me say how much I am enjoying playing War in the East. I have played many of the scenarios and have now played several times the Germans for the summer of the 1941-45 campaign. Indeed, I am now to the point whereby I am practising my different tactics prior to the mud of '41 to see how far I can get. To date, I have no problems taking Leningrad (and solely by the 18th Army) and on most occasions taking Moscow. All of this is achieved on normal level.

In reading many of the posts I see that people are making various complaints and have concerns about the Germans "not having a chance" against the Russians. I say to those people to be patient and to practice so as to understand the richness of the games mechanics and to question the tactics they are pursuing. Once the game is understood and the right tactics employed the computer on normal setting does not stand much of a chance. And in response to those who say that things would be very different against a human I say I know this and this is why I am practising so much before taking on someone. However, my one response right now to anyone saying that the Russians have such a large advantage in a human v human game is that the German player has something that the Russian does not have at the start of the game - the initiative. The game is largely for the German player to lose in the summer of '41. If the German player plays the game right and the Russian player, if he loses the critical cities of Leningrad and Moscow, will be crippled for the winter and the German will have the game set up for victory come 1942/43.

So to Gary, please do not listen to those who are talking about wholesale changes to the game and let people realise that things are not so bad for the Germans; and that they need to look more at how they are playing rather than the game itself.

[Aurelian]

Have you done all this playing a person?

[mmarquo]

He stated that he did not play a human; I tend to agree with him - why change much until the game has bee played through to the bitter end 20 + times by 2 humans? I am moving up the learning curve and each time I even do a single move I am gaining confidence. In December Leningrad was unattainable, now it is a fairly mundane exercise against the AI; the AI has not changed, but I have.[;)]
 
Marquo
 
 

[Michael T]

I have to agree. All this pro German talk has me worried. I have played 2 Human v Human games as German and won both. I never got to the winter. My gut tells me that *perhaps* the winter effects need to be toned down a bit, but more data is needed. As for the general run of the summer campaign I thought it went ok. The swamps were a bit to tough but that is being addressed. Doubling the cost to rail factories and the manpower reductions will hit Russia hard. I think a lot of the perceived problems with balance might just be the snowball effect of when players of unequal skill levels lock horns. I have played 3 games as Russian in human v human as well. Won all three, none got to winter. But I felt very nervous in all three. The Panzers are very powerful when they cut loose. Finally playing just one side all the time (i.e. just playing German) is no way to make a judgement on balance. You need to see the situation from both sides to construct any kind of informed view.

[Oleg Mastruko]

LOL I play(ed) three games vs human Germans.

I kinda lost two, or to be more precise I already wrote my "surrender letters" only to be persuaded to continue, because when winter hits, all those phenomenal successes will be undone. So my opponents say. Probably. Probably not. So I agreed to continue to see what happens.

Third game I easily contained my opponent and I expect to win that one without problems by 1943. IMO he just wasn't aggressive enough when he could and should have been aggressive.

Based on my experience so far I would say in hands of capable player Germans can EASILY get very very very deep into Russia, taking both Moscow and Leningrad. Is that enough to win, and whether all that can be undone with some winter magic remains to be seen.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

He stated that he did not play a human; I tend to agree with him - why change much until the game has bee played through to the bitter end 20 + times by 2 humans? I am moving up the learning curve and each time I even do a single move I am gaining confidence. In December Leningrad was unattainable, now it is a fairly mundane exercise against the AI; the AI has not changed, but I have.[;)]

Marquo

I know he played the AI. But, the complaints are that the Axis does badly against a live opponent. Or so it seems to me.

But yeah, I'm leery of the Sovs getting nerfed.

And some of these "suggestions", like having Soviet players worry about feeding civilians........

[bloomstombs2]

Unless the german player has taken leningrad AND killed off 4 million of your men, you are probably going to win unless you screw it up.

Otherwise you just have a very good shot of winning.

[mmarquo]

Well...who won the war? [:)] And the big "3" were never captured...this game should be decided on the last turns, on the banks of the Oder and at the walls of Berlin.
 
Marquo
 

[raizer]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Well...who won the war? [:)] And the big "3" were never captured...this game should be decided on the last turns, on the banks of the Oder and at the walls of Berlin.

Marquo

hard to believe that no one has gotten that far in a pbem, I mean none of the testers took the 9 months to do it. In K43 the testers spent almost a full year doing the full 180 turn campaign in a pbem. Some of these changes are needed but they are still being done without the knowledge of what a full pbem campaign game actually is.

[mmarquo]

No matter how well a game is tested by a small cadre of testers, when is gets into the hands of a plethora of astute, attentive gamers, many issues aka bugs are sure to surface.
 
2 by 3 mans up to bugs and issues; they seem genuinely interested in listening to the observations of gamers who are not demeaned, belittled or otherwise made to feel like fools for their observations. These guys are not offended at the suggestion their game may not be perfect; there is no bluster, posturing or cockyness; the word "bug" is not taken as an affront to one's ancesterage or manhood.
 
Marquo [:)]

[alfonso]

It is a tribute to the wisdom of the developers that the vast majority of "improvements" suggested are either cosmetic, irrelevant or plainly wrong. Besides, the harshest critics to the game are usually those who tend to be harsher with other forum members who dare to disagree, showing that there might be more issues with their psichology than with the game.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: alfonso

It is a tribute to the wisdom of the developers that the vast majority of "improvements" suggested are either cosmetic, irrelevant or plainly wrong. Besides, the harshest critics to the game are usually those who tend to be harsher with other forum members who dare to disagree, showing that there might be more issues with their psichology than with the game.

Sad, but true. (The second sentence.)

Good thing there is the green button option.

[mmarquo]

No green button - it is sheer entertainment to read to bluster and posturing of the self appointed pundits. [;)]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Marquo

No green button - it is sheer entertainment to read to bluster and posturing of the self appointed pundits. [;)]

There is that. And their ever present need to compensate for feelings of inferiority.

[mmarquo]

[There is that. And their ever present need to compensate for feelings of inferiority.
[/quote]

...by leading the glorious Wermacht to certain victory every time...because if not...the game is broken...[8|]