Trade & Monetary Issues

[MartialDoctor]

Hey all,

New player here; I just happened upon this great game and have been thoroughly enjoying it. But, I have a couple of questions that I can't seem to find in the manual or galactopedia (maybe I missed them?)

1) Why do my monetary funds jump around so much? I do most of my own construction and building of ships and don't see spies or armies being developed often. Why does my money suddenly disappear or appear? It doesn't seem to follow the numbers that are displayed (i.e. the proposed change displayed).

2) What does a Free Trade Agreement exactly do? It seems to me that empires will do trade even without it, correct?

Thanks in advance [8D]

[Kayoz]

Are you using vanilla DW or DW+RotS? The answer differs for each.

If you're using DW (vanilla), iirc, the income numbers showed the cumulative income/loss for the year (see the date of the game). It resets at the beginning of every year. If you're scratching your head and wondering how the heck this number is supposed to be of any use... join the club. It's a very general indication of your economic health. How can you use the numbers? Umm... well, ask Data - maybe he has an answer. When I was playing vanilla DW, I tried to make a mental note of what the approximate numbers were at the end of each year, so I knew if I should reign in or speed up expansion. Aside from that - I'm afraid you have no way of knowing how far into the red or black you are.

Generally - red is bad. You see red numbers, it's time to take a look at your expansion planner. You may have an excessive number of military ships, ground troops or ports. Or you may have so many mining stations that you're paying more in maintance than they're worth. Merker wrote a rather good posting on how to pump up your economy a little:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2539817

... but I find that the most expedient way to deal with an economy that's bleeding red ink is to build up about 40 or so ground troops - and drop them on someone's homeworld as an "aggressive trade delegation". Does wonders!

If you're using RotS, I believe it's... well, actually I don't have a clue. It seems to be your expected annual income, given your income less expenses - so if you build a ship, you'll see your ready cash drop immediately (construction costs) and your expected cash flow take a hit once it comes out of the construction yards. The manual is rather vague on it. How accurate it is, is questionable. It seems to show what the annual income given the latest "snapshot" of your economy. So of course, if you do nothing for an entire year, you'll probably end up with a larger income than was predicted - since your colonies will have grown during the year and thus your taxation income. Or that's what I think it does... sorry - the documentation on this is kind of vague.

As for free trade agreement -

Manual states:
A treaty outlining free trade between the two parties. This means that each party receives trade bonuses – a gradually-increasing percentage of the trade volume is paid to each empire, up to a maximum cap of 20%.

So what's traded? My observations indicate that you generally try to fill any material shortages from your trading partners - be it steel, gas or luxuries. More each of you has that the other doesn't, the bigger will be your trade income bonus. Of course you might be running a trade deficit - due to your lack of some high-priced resource - something to keep in mind if you're considering trade sanctions against a race that you've been supplying one of the super-rare resources. Less cash in your pockets!

[unclean]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor
1) Why do my monetary funds jump around so much? I do most of my own construction and building of ships and don't see spies or armies being developed often. Why does my money suddenly disappear or appear? It doesn't seem to follow the numbers that are displayed (i.e. the proposed change displayed).

That's usually the private sector buying ships from you. Whenever you expand to a new system or start trading heavily with a new neighbor you'll usually see a lot of civvy ships being built, which makes you a ton of cash. Trick is to realize it's just temporary income and not build up too much junk because of it.

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor
2) What does a Free Trade Agreement exactly do? It seems to me that empires will do trade even without it, correct?

Thanks in advance [8D]

When you trade the money goes right to the private sector, and you only get money from it indirectly through taxes. With trade agreements you get a bonus percentage of your trade added directly to your treasury, and get even more for Defense Pacts. It can add up to some pretty decent amounts, it's definitely worth it to play nice to a couple of races for it.

No problem dude!

[Apheirox]

Welcome to the community.

Some intelligent questions.

1) It sounds like you're using basic Distant Worlds. Like Kayoz said, yes, those numbers are wonky. I suggest you check your Empire Screen (the button with the picture of your flag) for your economic overview. The one to look out for, obviously, is the cash flow.

2) Yes, your empire trades with others even without the agreement - only a trade embargo prevents that. So, it really isn't that significant - 20% bonus is nice, but not necessary. I believe the bonus should have been bigger. Consider a free trade agreement icing on the cake.

edit: Sounds like unclean has a different understanding of the free trade agreement. His version is probably the correct one as it would make more sense.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: unclean

...and get even more for Defense Pacts. It can add up to some pretty decent amounts, it's definitely worth it to play nice to a couple of races for it.

Eep! Mutual Defence Pacts - they're horrible! Not worth the little extra you get over the Free Trade Agreement! The AI is far too fickle and gets into wars far too quickly for my tastes. Also, AI v. AI wars seem to end rather quickly - so if you get dragged into a war due to a MDP - you're probably going to end up fighting the war on your own - with your erstwhile ally having gone to peace and left you "holding the bag".

Best relationship is Subjugated Dominion, imo. Stomp 'em and take your 10% tribute.

[Wreck]

Mutual Defence Pacts - they're horrible! Not worth the little extra you get over the Free Trade Agreement! The AI is far too fickle and gets into wars far too quickly for my tastes.

Agreed. Also, you can often sell a declaration of war for a large amount of tech or other goodies.

Another thing: your own DoWs happen when you are ready, against an enemy of your own choosing. Whereas a MDP-triggered DoW often happens when you are not at all ready, and often against a large and relatively dangerous opponent.

One other thing about MDPs is that when you have 2+ of them, they can create a nasty situation for you if one DoWs another. One of your allies attacks the other: both call for your help. No matter what you do, you end up getting a large black-mark on your reputation due to 'didn't support an ally'.

[Bingeling]

Obviously you should pick your MDP with care.

But isn't the MDP a good way to get dragged into war when you are not problem, so the game becomes more interesting? And usually it is not that expensive to get peace unless they really, really hate you. When the guy you are helping abandons you.

Couldn't you avoid some multiple MDP issues if you pay attention to their opinion of each other? If they are really annoyed, drop one of them? Is there a penalty to drop a MDP outside of wars? I guess he may be a bit sad about it, but nothing that a few bribe's can't repair, or?

[Wreck]

Binge, yes to all.  Depends on how you like to play.  The game certainly will not tell you when two of your allies are starting to feel nasty towards each other, so you'll have to poll (how often?) to find it out.  You can do that.  But do you want to?

Getting dragged into an unchosen war does add interest.

[MartialDoctor]

Thanks for the replies all.  That clarifies a lot.

In regards to #1, I now know why my income might suddenly make a big jump.  But how about when it takes a huge dip?  I can't figure out what the AI is buying... I am manually doing everything that I know of (building ships, constructing, recruiting spies and armies) - everything in automation is either manual or suggest and everything, except tax rate, is unchecked.  Sometimes I'll see 10K or 15K just go instantly.

The only thing I can figure is maybe one of my spaceports is upgrading?  I can't seem to take it off of automode...

[MartialDoctor]

Oh, and is 4 the maximum number of research centers that can be placed in a super nova?  Seems to be that way.

[Data]

You can't take an individual SP off automode...no matter what the ships and bases screen shows, they are always automated. But upgrading it can be manually controlled.
There should not be a limit to the number of research centers in super novas but I've never built four or more than this. How did you observe this? After building four you cannot build the fifth?

[Igard]

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor

Thanks for the replies all.  That clarifies a lot.

In regards to #1, I now know why my income might suddenly make a big jump.  But how about when it takes a huge dip?  I can't figure out what the AI is buying... I am manually doing everything that I know of (building ships, constructing, recruiting spies and armies) - everything in automation is either manual or suggest and everything, except tax rate, is unchecked.  Sometimes I'll see 10K or 15K just go instantly.

The only thing I can figure is maybe one of my spaceports is upgrading?  I can't seem to take it off of automode...

Have you checked your expansion planner for resource demands? If you have a luxury resource that's in short supply, this can have a large negative impact on your economy. Gotta keep your population happy, well fed and subdued. [;)]

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Data

You can't take an individual SP off automode...no matter what the ships and bases screen shows, they are always automated. But upgrading it can be manually controlled.
There should not be a limit to the number of research centers in super novas but I've never built four or more than this. How did you observe this? After building four you cannot build the fifth?

After four were built, it would build any further ones a bit further out from the middle of the super nova. And these don't have any bonus to their research.

[MartialDoctor]

ORIGINAL: Igard
Have you checked your expansion planner for resource demands? If you have a luxury resource that's in short supply, this can have a large negative impact on your economy. Gotta keep your population happy, well fed and subdued. [;)]

Ah, not sure on this. I am constantly checking it to build more but it's possible that I don't have all the luxuries that my population wants.

I'm guessing if they don't have the luxuries they must be traded for and, thus, the loss of money?

[Igard]

Yes, trade is an issue if you rely on it.

Also a rule of thumb is that you keep your colonies supplied with at least 10 luxury resources to keep them happy and paying taxes. If you neglect the plebeians, you'll slowly start to lose income.

EDIT: edited because I was talkiing nonsense.[:'(]