AGS Turn 1 Moves

[alfonso]

ORIGINAL: carnifex

ORIGINAL: alfonso

When you say bombproof, do you mean the Soviet cannot reconnect?

Yes, I tried to get the Soviets to break the pocket maybe a dozen times to account for the variable movement allowances and they just can't get through the ZOC. The key is to have one armor unit with enough movement to reach that rail line west of Stanislav.

Is it not possible to place a Soviet unit (from outside) just in the hex south (well, SW) of that PanzerDiv west of Stanislav?

[carnifex]

I tried a bunch of times to punch through and the Soviets just didn't have enough MPs.

[Aussiematto]

It probably doesn't matter that the pocket formed by the dash to the Rumanian border is 'broken' - the troops west of it usually get caught anyway because they still can't escape fast enough if you get the pocket right on turn 2, using the late-arriving Panzers.

I don't try to seal the pocket with troops - I use 11th pz (the one with the most MP, closest to border) to get all the way down to Rumania - has 1 MP left to push out the Security Regt and link with the Rumanians. My recent opponent happily broke the pocket but still got badly mauled on turns 2 and 3. A side benefit is that the 11th PZ then gets to play nasty down south

Maybe I am just naive?

Matt

[2ndACR]

Lvov pocket is risky, if you fail to close it, you can be in for a nasty shock. But you always have to think turn 2-3. If you cannot securely close it, pull up short, just make sure you cut all the rail lines so he is forced to walk out. Then on turn 2-3 you can pocket them again.

I just had a nasty shock in my AAR, but luckily it worked out.

[CapAndGown]

If you want to be sure of getting the pocket, then make sure that tank division closest to the border is stocked up with support units and doesn't need to do any fighting before it encounters the NKVD regiment down on the Romanian border. You can assign both an pioneer battalion and a MG battalion to it at the start. In fact, you should use your initial set of admin points to assign pioneer battalions to all your panzer divisions, particularly the ones used to take Riga and to clear the path down to the Romanian border.

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

If you want to be sure of getting the pocket, then make sure that tank division closest to the border is stocked up with support units and doesn't need to do any fighting before it encounters the NKVD regiment down on the Romanian border. You can assign both an pioneer battalion and a MG battalion to it at the start. In fact, you should use your initial set of admin points to assign pioneer battalions to all your panzer divisions, particularly the ones used to take Riga and to clear the path down to the Romanian border.

Personally, I like to use the PzK support units in the Mot divs -- otherwise they get too weak in their attacks. And it is a shame to waste their movement as purely flank security.

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.

Interestingly, if you clear the hexes west of Tarnopol, you can leave the area south to Rumania almost unguarded (other than the guys at the base). One unit in the Pros area should suffice.

I do agree about the pioneers, though, -- they work well in the Pz Divs. The AFV support goes best in the MOT divs, I think.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.

There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:

[Ridgeway]

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.

There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:

Obviously, I haven't tried to break that position, but it looks pretty dicey for the Krauts. The INF DIV to the east should be able to move one hex directly west. Then the rest of the guys to the west can move east (hitting a Rum Cav to clear the way).

My understanding of the isolation rules is that once the pocket is broken, all the ISO penalties go away (other than some movement and attack capabilities based on supply). IOW, if you make a big pocket that breaks, you wasted your time, and might have well just concentrated on cutting rail lines.

[2ndACR]

Pocket not secure and will go back into supply next turn. If you try the Lvov pocket, you better think what do I do on turn 2-3 if he does this, or you will have to spend time saving some armor units.

[Mynok]

Here is my most recent experiment. Not perfect by any means, as the panzer south of Rovno will almost certainly be isolated. They will be easily relieved by 6th army though.

[Klydon]

Yeah, that is somewhat close to what I was doing in the early going except I didn't do anything with Rovno. I like doing the double penetration east and west of Lvov to get things going, but unfortunately you have to be careful about 17th army attacking down that way because the Russians can link up there and break the pocket. (Such an issue exists in that screen shot with likely the anti tank unit moving south next to that single 17th army unit and something from the south moving up to establish contact).

I need to spend some time on my opening German strat, but only so much time.

[2ndACR]

OOH you pulled a bunch from AGC. I have toyed with the idea of sending half of AGC armor to the south.

Looks like you could get Rovno and the southern panzer isolated. But you are correct that you have help close by so it is only a minor set back.

[Mynok]

I'm pretty sure that the western side is safe. Those units closest towards the Hungarian border were well-waxed during my attack. The infantry will only be able to move one hex due to ZOCs, leaving a hex of my control to maintain the pocket. One thing I like about this is the gap that 17th army makes is much closer to where the AGS panzers start and they can move a long way through there making a nice, wide corridor to hinder those powerful units down by Stanislav from incursion.

I pulled one Pz Corps and one extra Pz Div from AGS. It did not hurt my AGC pocket at all. It does cause some issues with 2nd Panzer getting to Gomel, but the south moves along very nicely with them there, and they turn north at Kiev to help out (and switch back to AGC at that point).

[Mynok]

I really like having the AGC cav in the swamps there to clean out crap trying to regroup and threaten my northern flank. It does a banner job at that. I send the AGC infantry back north to help at Gomel/Mogilev.

Biggest lesson learned in all my experiments: blast everything you can in the first turn. Use that advantage to the fullest to destroy/rout Soviets.

[2ndACR]

I have been toying with sending 2 of AGC panzer Corps to the south until after Kiev and then sweeping them north. Seems to work pretty good against the AI, not sure about a human but I also blow the entire front wide open and route just about everything. That leaves AGC with 3 Panzer Corps to advance with.

[CapAndGown]

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

ORIGINAL: Ridgeway

I have yet to see a loss against the NKVD reg at the Rum border by a PzDiv. However, one div will not secure the south end of the pocket. Your need two -- the NKVD, as well as the mot/arm units nearby and the strong inf div to the east have a lot of ability to break encirclements. Also the mot div up to the NE.

There is a way to do it with one division, though it is not sure fire and that is why I recommend attaching the MG battalion:

Obviously, I haven't tried to break that position, but it looks pretty dicey for the Krauts. The INF DIV to the east should be able to move one hex directly west. Then the rest of the guys to the west can move east (hitting a Rum Cav to clear the way).

My understanding of the isolation rules is that once the pocket is broken, all the ISO penalties go away (other than some movement and attack capabilities based on supply). IOW, if you make a big pocket that breaks, you wasted your time, and might have well just concentrated on cutting rail lines.

Well, I have tried to break it and it can't be done. There is no way for the Russians to reach the hex just north of the cavalry units which will convert to German control during the logistics phase. And no one has either the movement points or the strength to take out those cavalry units.

[CharonJr]

The only potential weakness to me seems to be to the north of the 2 panzer divisions, but it is unlikely that the Soviets will have enough MPs to move 2 and 3 hexes.

[mikemcmann]

Cap and gown

It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.

I think that the Romanian move is fine, but it requires a 2nd par group Corp to seal securely

[Mynok]

Yes, the panzer div needed to move SE to the border, then attack the Soviet infantry. Then the pocket would be secure down there, barring a successful attack of some nature.

[cookie monster]

ORIGINAL: mikemcmann

Cap and gown

It's auto broken. All units can always move one space. The sec moves east and the inf div moves west and the empty space connects them.

I think that the Romanian move is fine, but it requires a 2nd par group Corp to seal securely

He said the isolated hex flips to axis control during the logistics phase.

Well, I have tried to break it and it can't be done. There is no way for the Russians to reach the hex just north of the cavalry units which will convert to German control during the logistics phase. And no one has either the movement points or the strength to take out those cavalry units.

Therefore it doesnt matter if the two units move one hex. There will still be one hex short of breaking the isolation.

EDIT

added quote