Some observations from a long time player and historian

[Mardonius]

Dunno. 1 in 6 is a very large abstraction already. I can readily observe a few examples of weather being such a large factor in blockades being dispersed (the other hole being time on station and revictualling/maintenance requirements) that I don't think that the quality of the ship crews would be the deciding factor in the blockade. I think this advantage is already fairly captured in the naval combat advantages that GB enjoys and to double count this advantage is not equitable.

[bongina]

I think the entire naval game needs changing. it is completely unrealistic. Fleets are too big and naval looses too bloody. Also, ships carrying troops should be penalized on movement.

[patch1413]

My apologies for jumping all the way back here. And thanks for posting a thoughtful response - makes the debate much more pleasant.

1) Significant Fleet Escapes: The Dutch got out at Camperdown in the face of close blockade, the British being driven off station by weather and supply problems. The French got out at Toulon in January of 1805 and promptly went back in, not leaving for the Trafalgar campaign until March. The rebuilt Toulon fleet sortied briefly in 1808 or 1809. It didn't happen often, but it did happen. That the French never got much out of any of the escapes is why we play wargames - "What if?"

2) I'm well aware of the problems of moving a group of anything anywhere. The game give the Blockading British first shot and a +1 to damage. But right now that is ALWAYS what happens. You cannot, in EiA, simulate the Nile Campaign, or even Camperdown. France can't get out. Transports can't even get from Toulon to Malta in one turn, much less to Egypt. I use the 1 in 6 chance for two reasons - the first is that it was proposed in an old The General article, and two because we are only using a d6.

3) I should have been more specific - breaking the blockade just means you are at sea, along with the blockaders. There is still at least one interception roll in the area, plus another if you move away. It is intended as a calculated risk, not a given; again "What if?"

4) Napoleon's famous six hour quote was nonsense, even his army officers knew that (a small test landing on friendly shores drowned several hundred men), and I'm sure there were a lot sighs of relief when Austria attacked in 1805. The British navy ruled the waves, and no argument here, but only at tremendous cost in blood, treasure, and resolve, and unless the British are forced to consider the same problems I feel the naval game becomes a meaningless excercise in factor counting.

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

It's not true that a significant fleet of any size escaped a tight blockade at any time during the war between 1803 and 1815. There were many small fleets (10 or so ships) that did, also Brueys' fleet from Toulon in 1798 to its greater detriment, but one could argue that the British fleet there was stationed in the Gulf of Lyons sea area (and failed an intercept roll) and not actually in the Toulon blockade box.

From a sailing skipper's point of view, having piloted both square and sloop rigged ships into and out of a windy harbour under sail, I can tell you that no ship's captain would stand a chance of bringing a broadside around to an enemy fleet standing hove to close off the harbour and also be able to maintain sufficient steerage and control not to end up either in irons or on the rocks, either of which means death. Certainly not a 1 in 6 chance.

The other major problem when exiting a harbour, especially any river port, is that you do so bow first and in single file. An enemy fleet sitting "in the blockade box" is simply just going to pick off each ship one at a time as it leaves harbour. It's maybe a 1 in 50 chance of success if you try it, but it's a 49 in 50 chance of death if you try it and it doesn't work for you. So a blockade doesn't mean you can't sail, it just means that if you do sail you die, and your ships' captains don't all want to die.

In game terms allowing France a setup with 3-4 corps in Brest along with the entire French navy, and letting France have a 1 in 6 chance of breaking the blockade, forcing a British unconditional surrender and ending the game, would not fly with most players.

Napoleon said if that if the French were "masters of the Channel for six hours, we are masters of the world". The simple fact is that the French were never masters of the Channel and had no reasonable chance of becoming so.

[patch1413]

LIGHT SHIPS:

My concern with Light Ships is that they become damage shields for the more expensive ships of the line. In all the vast [Major Battles, sorry: 1st of June, Camperdown, Nile, Algericas, Trafalger, Calder's Action, Aix Roads . . .] sea battles of the period you can number the lost frigates and smaller on the fingers of one hand. As for 10 frigates dropping a 5 factor corps somewhere, that is just fantasy. I'm all for abstractions in a strategic campaign, but there have to be limits and the Light Ships and Transports are clearly outside the pale here.

[Mardonius]

Light ships, as encorporated in this game, are not an asset. One could use them for interception/evasion bonuses or something to that effect...

The gravest violation of common sense in the Naval Rules is the limited maintenance costs in a blockade box. As the Blockade box is the sea, its cost should be the sea. An if anyone tries to tell you that sustaining a fleet at sea close to the coast is easier than further from the coast they really have not reviewed the historical record. A blockade of an enemy coast line is very, very costly and, indeed, porous. For example, half of the ships that sailed from the Confederacy were able to escape the US blockade... Plenty of other examples from earlier periods.

[pzgndr]

My concern with Light Ships is that they become damage shields for the more expensive ships of the line.

This is a valid concern and could be resolved by implementing naval retreats for light fleets when alone versus heavy fleets and by implementing proportional losses when mixed fleets are involved. Marshall needs to relook this; no telling when something might happen. In the meantime, the editor works perfectly fine enough for customizing the campaigns to not have light fleets and/or transports. (Hint.) [;)]

Light ships, as encorporated in this game, are not an asset. One could use them for interception/evasion bonuses or something to that effect...

As incorporated in the current game, yes. Fix the light fleets issue above and they should be OK - maybe not an asset for naval warfare but still something many players may want in their games. The primary role for the light fleets should be the piracy and anti-piracy missions, which could probably be enhanced some to make it more interesting. The other possibility is for more light versus light naval skirmishes between the lesser powers. [8D]

[Murat]

The entire Invasion of Egypt started with a slipped blockade and ended (mostly) with a failed slip, but 1 crucial ship did escape and Nappy got home. John Paul Jones ruled the English coast for 3 years starting with 1 ship and building a small fleet. Oceans are big, some ports are big, some ports cannot be effectively blockaded, some can. In the end it is a game and some sacrifices to history must be made for playablity or we will be rolling percentile dice and consulting charts with advance algorithms to even play for the dozen or so of us that would get into that much detail and Marshall would be even more broke from this project because of low sales. The ideal port of this is Emperors of Europe which is basically EiA merged with A&A with A&A being almost all of the rules. That would be a better seller since while most here would hate it, the masses would eat up such a beer and pretzels thing they could finish in an afternoon.

wow my typing is getting worse