Firing LATW from within buildings

[Yoozername]

For what it's worth, I believe the 'other PF30' modelers have reconsidered thier stance regarding firing within cover.
 
An odd effect of these close range weapons is that with a few sprints, a firerer could change from a frontal shot to a side shot.
 
Also, if they truly fired at such close ranges, they were 'accurate'.  They would hit some part of the AFV target and it would have some effect.

[Mad Russian]

I've seen battle reports where PF missed as close as 5 meters away. Not once but twice.

The firers didn't get another chance.

You would think that's an anomaly but when you think of who some of these firers were it's not hard to imagine that they missed. They were often old men and boys and I can easily see how getting within 5 meters of an enemy tank could make you nervous your first time.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Yoozername]

Are you saying that someone 5 meters away from an enemy AFV missed once, grabbed another PF (I suppose it doesn't matter what version?) and missed again?

Can you post a link or reference?

Edit: Who did the battle report? Seems like everyone might be dead??

Edit: This thread is about firing from buildings? Did your report fire from buildings??

[apd1004]

I did a combat tour in Afghanistan as an embedded advisor to the Afghan National Army. Part of my training was to fire the RPG-7, and I have seen it fired many times. There was at least one instance where a soldier was killed by backblast from an RPG but he was standing right behind the thing when they fired it. As Yoozer says above, it is extremely LOUD when first fired, but the interesting thing is that the big bang it makes when it fires is not that bad for the firer because it is all being directed to the rear. Still, we wore earmuffs when we fired the RPG-7. There is an explosive charge that goes off when the weapon is fired that serves to eject the warhead from the weapon and get it far enough from the firer before the rocket motor fires. I would say that most rocket-propelled LATW use that principle, the PIAT being an exception. There is debris and a blast that come out the back end of a rocket-propelled weapon, but it is only really dangerous within a few feet directly behind the launcher, thus allowing it to be fired from within buildings. I would not want to fire that thing from an enclosed space with no hearing protection, but I suppose hearing loss is better than taking a tank round in the chest.

One of the things people don't realize about unguided rocket-propelled munitions (i.e., most LATW) is that these weapons deploy fins as a means of flight-stabilizing the warhead after leaving the launcher. This becomes problematic in a crosswind situation because while the rocket motor is still burning, any crosswind will deflect the fins and actually carry the projectile into the wind. I have no idea if that fact was understood by the folks firing those weapons back in WWII because those weapons were in their infancy, but I can tell you it is still not completely understood by firers of those weapons even today. That is why given the large numbers of insurgent RPG's fired at coalition vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years, the actual numbers of direct hits on vehicles where the warhead functioned as intended is extremely low.

The natural tendancy of anyone firing a weapon at a target is to aim center of mass and fire. If you do that with a rocket-propelled weapon and there is any type of crosswind, you will surely miss because the rocket will go the opposite way from where you think it will go and either go too far in front or go behind the target. It becomes even more difficult when trying to hit a moving target where you also have to apply lead. In a combat situation, I would say that the firers ability to take this into account makes the likelihood of a hit even lower. Obviously, the closer you are to a target, the better your chances are of hitting it with any weapon, but even at close ranges you are not guaranteed a hit with an unguided rocket-propelled weapon in a crosswind.

As far as the PF 5m miss twice, I am a bit sceptical about that story but also remember that the original version of the panzerfaust had no sights. The RPG-7 has sights but it is damn difficult to hit where you aim. If you never fired the weapon before, you are possibly being shot at, knew nothing about how rockets work, and it had no sights, how do you aim the thing accurately? Without the reference there are a lot of unknown factors to the story, but anything can happen in combat, and it usually does.

[Commanderski]

I was watching the History Channel some time ago, their tank battle series, which is mainly on the Western Front. A Sherman tank commander did tell the story about 2 German Army officers who pulled Panzerfausts out from behind their great coats at about 15 feet and both missed. He said he didn't give them the chance to try again...[:)]

If you never fired one before, being that close and being in a hurry it's probably possible to miss. We can't say what the reasons may be for sure because we weren't there and wouldn't want to be.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Yoozername

Are you saying that someone 5 meters away from an enemy AFV missed once, grabbed another PF (I suppose it doesn't matter what version?) and missed again?

No, two firers standing next to each other. They both fired and they both missed.

Don't know the version. It was late in the war.

Can you post a link or reference?

I read it recently but I'm not sure what book it's in at the moment. I've done a LOT of research for a possible upcoming expansion and I don't remember which book I read it in.

Edit: Who did the battle report? Seems like everyone might be dead??

It was a Russian account. And yes the Germans were killed by the tank's main gun after they missed. The Russians were amazed that they were missed at that range TWICE. They didn't let them try for a third time.

Edit: This thread is about firing from buildings? Did your report fire from buildings??

Your post #21 didn't say anything about accuracy when firing from a building so I included that story of the misses.

These guys were in a building to start with and ran out along side the road and fired. It struck me and the guy telling the story that they could both miss at such a close range.

I'll see if I can relocate the text. It would be something interesting for the rest of you to read as well.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mobius]

BTW, spaced armor can defeat HEAT warheads. At least WWII bazooka HEAT warheads.

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776tankhits.html

[Yoozername]

Yes, I have read that report quite a few times.  I would conclude that sloped armor also gave the US bazooka weapon trouble.  The rockets did not have an effective fuze and would glance off the target. 
 
It seems that the hits on the running gear and jack and other parts has destroyed the cone before the charge has been able to form a jet.  The description of the hits seem to describe odd shaped holes that are not consistant with HEAT type explosions.  In other words, the overlapping panther/tiger running gear acted as 'bazooka-shields'.  The bazooka really needs to hit a hard vertical target to get the fuze to work. 
 
Too bad the turret sides did not have tracks on them.  It would be interesting to know how this would effect the rockets.  The one track hit on a bolt between individual track links did not seem very effective.
 
I have read a ordanance report that bazooka rockets were modified in normandy depots so that they would detonate on hedgerows.  It seems the rockets would hit the hederows and bounce off and not explode.

[Yoozername]

http://wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?t=689
 
The bazooka warheads have a very thin metal nose cone.  From this cutaway, the base fuze is just spring loaded and the nose piece must therefore decel the warhead so that the spring can be overcome and the base ignition can do its job.  I suspect that flimsy nose piece would crush or pop off.

[decaro]

Whatever structure you choose, just don't fire a bazooka or other rocket in a barn anywhere near hay.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[Yoozername]

An interesting PF action.  Note that it penetrates the front of the sherman and the track 'added-armor'...
 
This is from "The 12th SS The History of the Hitler Youth Division, Volume One," "Repelling the Attack on le Mesnil-Patry on 1 June 1944," page 219-20 as told by Pionier Horst Lutgens:
"Our scouting party had dug in at an orchard...Suddenly, the Canadians opened fire on our front lines from all barrels...Almost immediately, Unter-scharfuhrer-Vogle who commanded the Zug, yelled: 'Tanks from ahead!' Then I could also hear the engine noise and the barking of the machine guns.
'Lutgens, Panzerfaust ready, let's go!' came Unter-scharfuhrer Vogel's voice. I was the only one in the Zug who had gone through extensive training with this weapon and knew it well. I had ben taught that detonators and explosives had always to be kept separately. Now we had a mess! Theory and practice are indeed quite different. I planned to overcome this later, if I was still alive. The detonator was with Walter Stinner, in his foxhole 20m away. In the meantime, the tanks were coming closer and closer.
'Lutgens, get out, attack the first tank!', Unterschar-fuhrer Vogel shouted urgently. Gathering all my courage, I jumped out of my hole and crawled, while machine gun salvos whistled above, close to the ground, to Walter Stinner. 'Walter, quickly, hand me the detonators!' He threw them over to me and shouted: 'Horst, good luck!'...I crawled back to my hole and grabbed my first Panzerfaust and made it ready. I had three of them in my foxhole. Then I looked for a victim. There it sat, the Sherman, huge and mighty. Its turret was pointed in the direction of our battalion command post. Its gun fired round after round...Now, there were even more tanks! One, two, three, four, five of these Shermans could be seen in the blue haze of the air saturated by gunpowder smoke. When I was within twenty meters, I aimed and fired. But nothing happened. Jam! Just what I needed! Once more, I cocked and fired. Jammed again! Now I was getting nervous. I cocked the weapon again and this time it roared off. I could not watch the hit. There tank providing cover had spotted me and was firing on me. I did hear the explosion, and then ran in zigzagging jumps back to my foxhole. All of a sudden, the Canadians turned away. I could immediately make out the reason for this. Three German Panzers had joined the battle. It was a feast for the eyes. Within a short time, six Shermans were in flames or had blown up....
After the powder smoke had lifted, I inspected 'my' Sherman. It had been hit form the front, directly under the driver's seat. The shell had drilled through a set of spare tracks and the armor."