Possible eureka moment on artillery fire

[PirateJock]

Over the last few days I've been trying to get to grips with how artillery fire works. The thing that's been confusing me is what the Defense Value (DV) for a unit is. There's nothing obvious in the Manual on how it's derived so I've been trying to piece it together. However I may have just had a eureka moment ... alternatively I may have just been being stupid up until now.

Is the DV for each unit calculated from the information in the Terrain Defense Value table only?

For example if there is an unarmoured unit in a Clear hex it's DV = (5 - 1) = 4? From the TDV table Clear = 5, unarmoured = -1 and as it's posture is NOT dispersed that modifier is 0. Alternatively if there is a dispersed armoured unit in a Rough hex it's DV = (6 + 2 + 1) = 9.

Also I assume that there is no modifier to the D10 that is rolled when working out the result from the Artillery Resolution Table.

Can somebody confirm if I'm on the right track.

Cheers

p.s. Max 86 - I may have to rewrite that artillery part in the Charts & Tables section I sent you last night

[PirateJock]

Drat had to put the second image back in - the forum didn't like my workaround!

[Fred98]

P67 - 68 of the manual explains it but does not give examples.

A unit has a defence valu of 15

Is on a clear has so it becomes 20

If it is an armoured unit it must be more difficult so it becomes 22

If however it were not an armoured unit it must be easier so it becomes 19.
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[PirateJock]

Hi Joe

I think the value you're giving is the Defense Strength of the unit - is it the value you see in-game on the counter? - not the Defense Value. That's what's been causing me the confusion. The Defense Value has to be in the 3 - 10 range so it's equivalent to the result coming from the Artillery Resolution Table on Manual p67.

Cheers

[Fred98]

As I see it the wording of the manual is not clear.
 
As I read it again I see you could be right. Note the table column header is "DV modifiers".  What value is being modified?
 
And I am waiting your turns [:)]
 
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[PirateJock]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
As I see it the wording of the manual is not clear.

Welcome to my world [;)]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
And I am waiting your turns [:)]

Yep - had an unexpectedly busy weekend so no gaming for me till tonight [:(]

Cheers

[Fred98]

I did a test.  3 arty units each have a bombard factor of 6.
 
3 x 6 = 18
 
The combined bombard strength = 18.
 
After a arty strike I get this message:  Artillery Attack Roll/Shift [Str]    4/-1/[126]
 
So, the dice roll was a 4, the shift was -1 and the strength was 126.
 
Where does 126 come from ??????
 
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[PirateJock]

The 126 is the Total Bombardment Strength (TBS) for the 3 units. This term is from the Manual and is confusing. It is NOT as simple as being a straight addition of the Bombardment Strength (BS) of each unit. It IS the addition of values BASED on the BS.

The calculation for each unit is (have a look on Manual p67):

Bombardment Strength (BS) x Quality x Disruption modifier

I assume you've got all 3 units at Quality rating 7 with no Disruption because, 3 units all with a BS = 6 with a Quality rating of 7 and no disruption have a TBS of 3(6 x 7 x 1) = 126.

The -1 Column Shift is due to the fact that you are Bombarding unit(s) that are fully identified. If the units were limited or Fog of War unit the shift would be -2 Column Shifts. Or if the artillery fire was to support an Assault there would be no Column Shift.

The result from the Artillery Resolution Table (Manual p67) is 6*; meaning all units in the target hex will take a Quality Check with a +10 modifier of the D100 roll, i.e. making it harder to pass, and any units with Defense Value less than or equal to 6 may take a Hit.

In the update I've changed Total Bombardment Strength to Total Bombardment Value; a small thing but it helps to keep things clearer.

Cheers

[Fred98]

Or to rephrase:
 
Quality of all 3 = 70
 
Bombard value = 6
 
6 x 70 x 0.10  = 42   ( Page 19)
 
42 x 3 = 126
 
I suggest that the "42"  appear on the unit information screen so we don't need to calculate it   !!!!
 
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[Fred98]

I just did some tests in the St Vith scenario and I think your Eureka moment is correct.

Chart 10.3 on page 68. "DV modifiers" should be renamed "Defense Values"

The section from "Fort" and down is correctly named "DV modifiers".

But the 2 sections ought to be separated.
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[PirateJock]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

Or to rephrase:

Quality of all 3 = 70

Bombard value = 6

6 x 70 x 0.10  = 42   ( Page 19)

42 x 3 = 126

In this situation the above works but what about multiple units with different Quality and Disruption values. For robustness, better to calculate for each unit and then sum.

Cheers

[Fred98]

Yes. Or for each individual arty unit:
 
Bomb Strength  x Quality x Distruption factor x 0.10
 
Disruption factor
Disruption Level 0 = 1.00
Disruption Level 1 = 0.75
Disruption Level 2 = 0.50
Disruption Level 3 = 0.25
Disruption Level 4 = 0.00
 
Then sum all those ary units that are under the same command.
 
 
 
 
 
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[PirateJock]

For consistency I'm using the Quality rating of a unit as being in the range 1 - 10; this is the range used when setting up units in the game. If the Quality needs to be expressed as a percentage, for example in a Quality Check, I'll multiply the Quality x 10. This approach removes more calculations than it creates.

BTW - Turns sent [:)]

Cheers

[Fred98]

From this thread I get:

The Posture of any unit is not relevant if attacked by artillery alone. That means a unit in Movement posture can remain in that posture till it gets near the front.

Artillery should fire every turn if not otherwise supporting an assault. Even if the target does not take a hit it must take a Quality Check.

Its best to fire at a target with full information but otherwise any target will do.

If you have a choice of targets, fire at the one with the lowest Quality or the highest Disruption.

Study the section on Fog of War and learn that you should move your artillery every second turn or so otherwise its visibility status will become Full which makes it an easy target for enemy artillery.
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[Fred98]

Do others feel the following is correct?

Any result causes every unit in the target hex to take a Quality Check. If the result includes an * then a +10 is added to the Quality check dice roll to the detriment of the target.


Compare the Defense Value of the target unit with the result from the Results Table.

If the result is greater than the DV then a hit is taken:

+1 or +2 > DV = 1 hit
+3 or +4 > DV = 2 hits
+ 5 or more > DV = 3 hits

The result is applied to each unit in the hex separately. For example if 2 infantry units are in a hex and result is “2 hits” then each will take 2 hits.

But if there is one infantry unit and one armoured unit in the hex, the infantry will take 2 hits and the armour might take 1 hit.

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[Fred98]

Note some defense values:

Clear = 5
Beach = 7
Mountain = 7


Surely Beach ought to be "5" like Clear?

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[junk2drive]

Beach should be worse than clear IMO.

[PirateJock]

I would think it's better to be on a beach than on clear terrain when taking artillery fire; leading to a high DV. On a beach the shell would need to land on top of you to cause damage; most of the impact adsorbed by the sand.

Cheers

[PirateJock]

If I'm allowed to answer [;)]

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Any result causes every unit in the target hex to take a Quality Check. If the result includes an * then a +10 is added to the Quality check dice roll to the detriment of the target.

I'd agree

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
Compare the Defense Value of the target unit with the result from the Results Table.

If the result is greater than the DV then a hit is taken:

+1 or +2 > DV = 1 hit
+3 or +4 > DV = 2 hits
+ 5 or more > DV = 3 hits

I don't think that's quite right. I reckon the number of hits taken by the units in the target hex is calculated from D10 roll – smallest DV and the difference = number of hits is as you've listed them.

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
The result is applied to each unit in the hex separately. For example if 2 infantry units are in a hex and result is “2 hits” then each will take 2 hits.

But if there is one infantry unit and one armoured unit in the hex, the infantry will take 2 hits and the armour might take 1 hit.

Not sure where this text is from - is it in the Manual somewhere?

My take on allocation of the hits (based on Manual p68 - 69) is that hits are only taken by units with a DV less than the table result value, or possibly with a DV less than or equal to the table result value (see contradicting statements in Manual p68 & 69).

Hits are allocated to units based on ascending DV.

For example, if you've got 3 units in the target hex with DVs of 3, 4 & 5 and a result from the Artillery Resolution Table of 4. The number of hits generated by the fire is 1 Hits (4 - 3) and the unit with DV = 3 takes the hit.

In the above example, if there were 3 units had DVs of 3, 3 & 5. There would still only be 1 hit generated but I'm not sure which of the 2 units with DV = 3 would take the hit. It might be that infantry take it before armour ... possibly as makes sense. The only text I've seen in the Manual on hit allocation/priorites is on p77 Section 10.6.4; but that is only relevant to Assaults.

Cheers