Understanding of UV "Mine rules"...

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

The mine warfare is important part of UV gameplay but there is no guide (at
least I am unaware of it) for comprehensive "Mine rules"...


Therefore I tried to "digest" all info I was able to get via manual, patches
and UV forum into list (see below).


I hope/think that all info I wrote is accurate but one never knows... so... I
ask your help fellow UV players...

Can more experience UV players please look at it and add/remove/change
appropriate stuff?

Can Matrix/2By3 please comment?



Mine rules (v0.1 for UV v2.xx)
------------------------------

#1
Mine depots are located at Truk (for Japanese) and at Brisbane and Noumea (for
Allies).


#2
Minefields are divided into "defensive" and "offensive".

The "defensive" minefields are those you lay in HEXes with friendly base
(airfield and/or port) or friendly "dot".

The "offensive" minefields are those you lay in all other HEXes.

Therefore you can have friendly "defensive"/"offensive" minefields and enemy
"defensive"/"offensive" minefields.


#3
While the friendly "defensive" minefields are well mapped and maintained, the
friendly "offensive" minefields are not and there is a chance to hit them with
your own ships.

Friendly TFs will avoid friendly "offensive" minefields, when determining
shipping routes.


#4
Minefields can be laid in shallow water and in deep water HEXes.

Minefields placed in deep water decay at the rate of 50% per day. These either
sink, float away or the moorings break.


#5
In base HEXes the minefields are predominantly laid in vicinity of harbor and
shoreline.

For all other HEXes the mines are spread out (spaced) through entire HEX area.


#6
All task forces have small chance to stumble into "defensive" minefields in
enemy base HEXes.

A somewhat greater chance to hit the enemy "defensive"/"offensive" minefield
occurs if no enemy base is located in the HEX, but as these mines are more
spread out, the chances of an individual ship hitting a mine are lessened.

The "Transport" and "Fast transport" task forces with enemy base that contains
"defensive" minefield as a destination have a much greater chance to hit the
minefield, since they come closer to the shoreline and or port.


IMPORTANT:
This means that MSW and DMS ships should be part of "Transport" and/or "Fast
Transport" invasion TF because this is the only way you can get them close
enough to shoreline to clear the bulk of enemy "defensive" mines placed there.

Also this means that the "defensive" minefields have small impact on enemy
"Bombardment" TFs and submarine TFs. This is because the "Bombardment" TF
would never come close enough to shoreline (they fire from distance) and the
submarines would wait outside harbor (and therefore also be to far away from
minefield).


#7
MSW and DMS ships in "Mine Warfare" TF can clear:

- Friendly "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "defensive" minefields


Additionally Destroyers (DD), Destroyer Escorts (DE), Patrol Gunboats (PG),
Patrol Craft (PC) and Destroyer Transports (APD) have been given very limited,
ad hoc, mine destruction abilities. Each can locate and destroy a few mines by
shooting them, if the crew makes the proper experience rolls and spot other
mines, as well. This awareness of the minefield will allow the task force
entering the minefield to be hit by fewer mines. This ability only applies in
cases where the task force of which they are apart in danger of hitting mines
and if that task force is traveling less than 7 hexes that turn.

Also, due to small minesweeping boats not detailed in the game, task forces at
friendly, larger ports now have less chance of hitting enemy mines than at
friendly, smaller ports.



Leo "Apollo11"

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

Yup. That's the way it works.

Good Summary...

Michael Wood

[Sonny]

In #6 you say all TF have a small chance of hitting mines in enemy base hexes. This chance does not seem small to me. Before the latest patch I seldom ran into a minefield when bombarding or moving in for surface action. Now going for surface combat in a mined enemy base hex is suicide. And the enemy seem perfectly capable to maneuver in these surface battles without hitting any mines. Guess they lay them in patterns suitable for battle maneuvers.

For landings of any type (fast transport or regular) the mines should be a real problem. For offshore actions they should not be a factor.

[tanjman]

Leo "Apollo11",

Great Post! It definitely cleared things up for me. I respectfully suggest you put 'Mine Warfare Rules' in a text file and submit it to Spooky's UV site.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Originally posted by Mike Wood
Hello...

Yup. That's the way it works.

Good Summary...

Michael Wood

Thanks Mike!


BTW, something that come to my mind today...

What happens when you lay mines in friendly "dot" HEX (i.e. when there
is no base yet) and then build the base there?

According to all info I have (and to what I wrote in v0.1 of my
document) the mines that are laid in all other HEXes that are not bases
are spread in whole HEX (and in base HEXes the mines are predominantly
placed in vicinity of harbor and shoreline).

So... what happens in case I described? Are the mines "rearranged"?


Leo "Apollo11"

[KevinRohrer]

Offensive minefields seem to be completely useless w/ V2.11. I am playing four games of UV: 2 as the Allies and 2 as the Japs. During these games, I have laid numerous sub (3-subs at a time in a hex) and ML minefields in enemy ports, shallow, and coastal hexes. To date, not one enemy ship has struck one of these mines even though ships are passing through the fields. Prior to 2.11, I was taking a heavy toll of ships in minefields. What is the problem?

[Grumbling Grogn]

I was puzzling over this last night and could not figure out why my hard earned mine fields were disappearing... Duh, deep water.

How does Mine Sweeping work? If there is a field in shallow water. How can I even tell it's size in order to estimate how many MSW ships to send for example? And even if I know the aproximate size of the enemy field, what are my ballpark guesses for the time to "clear" the area with one ship? Two ships?

I have not really played much having just snagged it from the store the other day, but it would be nice to know this stuff before teh AI kicks my arse again.

[Feinder]

I'm curious, how many mines make for an "effective" minefield.

If each hex is 30 miles across at it's widest point, that means that each hex represents 675 square miles.

Sending 3 subs, with 3 mines each, is only 9 mines. Whoop-dee-do.

Sending in Argonaught with 30 mines is certainly more suitable, but it still isn't THAT many mines.

Granted, from Apollo's post, only a relatively small percentage of the hex is actually being mined (limited to the harbor mouth and beach areas). That being the case, approximately how many mines does it take in say a beach hex, to give a 15% chance of any one enemy transport hitting a mine? Does it take 30? Does it take 100?

It has always seemed to me tho, how effective can it -really- be, to even put 3 subs in a TF to go mine a hex? You're still only putting out 9 mines. It just seems to me that those 3 subs would be far more likely to hit those same targets with TORPEDOES.

-F-

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Originally posted by Feinder

<snip>
Sending 3 subs, with 3 mines each, is only 9 mines. Whoop-dee-do.
<snip>

As far as I know all ammo in UV is not individual weapon ammo - instead we have counted the ammo for one "combat shoot".

Thus the 3 mines ammo in subs doesn't represent just 3 mines - it represents 3 c"ombat shoots" of mines.

BTW, how many actual mines does it represent I have no idea...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S. Check other ammo stats for all kind of UV weapons and you will see that all are "combat shoots".

[tanjman]

I think Apollo11 is right about the amount of ammo carried for some weapon types.

Some examples that seem to work and one that doesn't:

Gamble class DM: has two (twin mounting) rails aft with 40 Mk 16 mines each for a total of 80 mines carried. Which matches the data I can find on this class.

S-37 class SS: has 4 21" torpedo tubes forward (quadruple mounting) with 3 Mk 10 torpedoes each for a total of 12 torpedoes carried. Which matches the data I can find on this class.

Colorado class BB: has 8 16in/45 Mk 7 (twin turrets) with two turrets forward and 2 aft, with 9 salvos per gun for a total 72 rds of 16in ammo. Which doesn't match the data I can find on this class.

I don't think gun ammo is counted as individual rounds but as so many rds fired over a set amount of time. i.e. if a 5in/38 Mk 12 has a rate of fire (ROF) of 20 and has 36 rounds available, then this would mean it actually carries 720 rds of ammo. Which sounds about right for a 5in/38 Mk 12 gun mount from my experience as a gunner's mate in the USN. But it doesn't carry over to the 16in/45 Mk 7 gun which has a ROF of 2 then 2 x 9 is 18 rds per gun which is only around 10% of the ammo carried per turret. Maybe different rules are used for guns over 6in which is were this seems to stop working.

Well it does work for mines and torpedoes. Not sure about everything else.

Edit: Finaly remembered the correct military term, its Base Load for a units normal ammunition loadout.

[Feinder]

(* smacks head *)

Now why didn't I think of that Apollo (combat shoot that is).

I -know- those subs didn't carry 3 torpedoes, why was I transferring that mines.

Duh.

You do realize tho that Argonaught and the IJN MLs, are maybe carrying ALOT of mines then...? If (relatively), each ammo point of mines a "salvo" of 4, that means Argo has 120... Now we're talking about enough mines to "cause concern".

Makes alot more sense now. Grazti.

I'm still curious tho, how many mines is enough? Unfortunately, there's no idicator as to how many mines are in a hex (and therefor how effective the field is). You just know there are mines there from the happy little dot.

-F-