1.04.11 Klydon (Axis) vs Hfarrish (Soviet) No Hfarrish please

[bigbaba]

i just spent some time to read your great AAR from the beginning on. first of all, you did a great job in the northern front. you was very fast at the two rivers before he could get his nose deeper into the sand. he on the other hand did a good job at the dnjepr line. i am playing my first Gc PBEM as russian and leard a lot from you and your opponent so far. one important thing seems to be the dig in behind the dnjepr ASAP and also to defend the two rivers on the way to leningrad against the panzerkorps so they have to wait for infantry to catch up.

anyway it seems realy that leningrad is lost for the red army from the beginning on when the enemy decides to get some AGC troops to north and support ACN with them. i saw it in your game, when your opponent railed a lot of infantry and tank to nprth and was not able to defend leningrad. or is there a way to rescue the city as sowjet in 1941?

also, the carpet tactic seems to be the best one to weaken this nasty german PZD.

for me as i started my 1st turn as sowjet the situation invites a sir robinov tactic but if i do so i end up losing leningrad and moscow to intact german PZ korps. that worked in "war in russia" well but this game seems to be a different story.

i wish i can end up like your great opponent and lose "only" 2.8 mio. men before the mud.

[Klydon]

Turn 17. The end of nice weather for awhile. This screen shot is of the AGN/C area.

The Finns continued to make pests of themselves in the north. I don't think Hfarrish really cares since they are so close to the "no move" line and it will be interesting to see if he really works at trying to keep Cherepovets. In the mean time, the Finns cut off and surround a infantry division.

16th Army pushes as hard as they can to guard the southern Finnish flank and also make it a point to open the way for XXXXI panzer to capture the rail junction at Sonkovo. With this knocked out, the north/south line all the way to Dimitrov is knocked out and will make it harder to reenforce this area up there (not that Hfarrish cares) and supplies will hopefully be an issue as well since there really is not that close of a line in the middle of the line there.

2nd Army pushes a bit around Kalinin and cut off 2 infantry divisions. In conjunction with 16th army, there is a threat of encirclement of more, so even with mud coming, I would somewhat expect the Russians to pull back a bit. While it would be nice to tip the line to the NE up towards the Rybinsk lake and river line, I don't think that is in the cards, even during snow, but we will see. From a German perspective, it would be helpful from the standpoint of how short the line would be going up to the Finns.

18th army assumes more of the front down towards Moscow and sets up to start digging operations in depth. Infantry of 3rd Panzer move up to take part of the line and also dig in depth as well.

9th army shifts south a bit and also launches some attacks against Russian units who are not very heavily fortified. 9th Army also commits more units to digging.

The rest of 4th PG goes into reserve and starts helping with the digging in the middle. 4th Army shifts south again and while the line in the middle of the map is weak, it is whole. The Russian line is weak here as well, but more units could be railed in for a big offensive if the Russians choose to do it.

Units of 3rd PG and infantry of 2nd PG make some progress towards Tula. While they will be some distance away from Tula with mud, the Russians must be careful here as all of Tula's industry remains there.

[Klydon]

Turn 17 end. AGS

6th Army unpacks from around Kharkov and makes some minor attacks to push some Russian stacks back before assuming a line for mud. XXXXVI panzer remains on duty in the area digging fall back positions (along with some infantry) and stands ready to deal with any Russian incursions.

17th Army gives up the two mountain divisions (withdrawing started last turn and continued this turn) so they can be rehabbed over mud and basically sent into reserve in time to be ready for the expected blizzard offensive. Some limited attacks are made with a bridgehead established over the Donets while Russian bridgeheads are eliminated. The rest of the army moves south to relieve as much of the 11th army as possible so they can concentrate on the Stalino area.

11th army and 1st PG launch a drive in the Stalino area to the SE. I never intended to attack Stalino this turn simply because I knew that the Russians would have 3 strong infantry divisions in the city and I was going to have 1 infantry division that would be capable of making a deliberate attack. The operation instead turned into pushing the Russians back and to my surprise, I was able to open up some pretty good holes in his lines. 7 divisions were pocketed west and south of Stalino while Das Reich took a tour of the Mius river area (displacing numerous airfields and HQ units). Two cav divisions are out of supply in the south, but not surrounded. Rumanians and Hungarian units were moved up to "hug" the pocketed Russian units, so no digging here for the time being.

While the other cites of the area are fairly empty of industry, Stalino remains full of 29 armaments and 5 heavy industry. 29 armaments represents nearly 8% of the total starting armaments factories for the Russians, so the loss of that would hurt. I don't know if I will be able to pull it off during the snow period, but from the German perspective, we can only hope. [:D] (Although with Kharkov fresh in my mind, I have my doubts).

[Klydon]

Turn 18. The Russians went 0-4 on attacks on their last turn of clear weather. I was expecting more attacks to try to take advantage of limited counter attacking ability the Germans would have on turn 18 mud. he closed up again in the south around Stalino, but only in very weak force as it is hard to come over so much enemy territory to him. I consolidated my grip on the various pockets and looked to push more troops up towards Stalino. The panzers also managed to push a few Russian units back that were mostly single stack and not dug in. I currently have 4 hexes on Stalino. The question will be can I dig up enough infantry to be on it and make a good attack during snow? The defense is already up to 86 and chances are good it will be a level 4 fort. I think I have to take a crack at it. 29 Armaments and 5 HI is a lot to let go. It will be tricky down there as I have to not only look at trying to finish off Stalino, but also liquidate the pockets in good time.

In the north, the Finns sort of advance while 16th army with its Panzer corps pushes forward. These guys are all way out there logistically. There are not that many Russians in the area and it is hard for him to send troops in here at the moment.

2nd Army pushes a bit into the line and more Russians are threaten with future encirclement unless they withdraw. 2nd Army also takes over some line from 16th army to allow that army to continue to advance.

Several turns ago, Hfarrish mentioned reading up on the AAR when we hit mud and perhaps post some of his thoughts from the Russian side. I don't have any issue with that, so you may see him post something in here before long.

I will be posting some OOB stuff, losses etc here at some point.

[Tarhunnas]

Be careful advancing too far with the Finns in the north. I don't know what your rail net looks like up there, but if the Finns get too far, they can become isolated during mud from being more than 100 MPs from the railhead.

[hfarrish]

Well, I certainly think this has been an interesting campaign so far, and the toughest I have faced as a Soviet player, so hats off to Klydon for that.

I think my general doctrine in 41 has always been a combination of trading space for time and fighting where I think I have a good spot. Invariably this leads me to a policy of focusing my defenses on the Dnepr and Smolensk landbridge and then along the Luga south of Leningrad, while trying to leave enough units behind to delay the German so that I can achieve level 2 forts (under current rules) by the time he gets there. By building a carpet behind these lines, the idea would be to have well rested units in place to launch strong counterattacks against German forces after they punch across the river. A side correlary to this doctrine is to avoid major encirclements at all costs - given some of the disasters that have recently befallen Soviet players in AARs I was probably especially sensitive to this.

I would have liked to do more attacking and less retreating, but broadly speaking Klydon did a good job keeping his lead panzers away from concentrations of forces that were capable of counterattacking, or drawing back one hex behind rivers that left me short of MPs to do deliberate attacks.

On industrial policy, I generally just tried to evacuate what was most threatened. A lot of times I would leave a point or two here or there, particularly of HI, if I couldn't get it out in a given turn. Was especially difficult to determine what to pull out towards the end, so figured my Moscow and Stalino forces had the most bulk and could hold. Moscow may be alright, I did get the Makeeva and Gorlekova (sic) factories out but we'll see how Stalino plays out.

Overall, I would rate my strategy a partial success, which can be broken down by the various (German) fronts:

AGN: This was clearly a disaster from week one. Klydon had an especially strong opening here, effectively trapping every functioning unit in the Baltics. What few troops I had I used to build a line running along the river from Pskov South, and I was shocked when this was annihilated and Pskov captured on Turn 2. Very unusual for a German to pull this off. This left me scrambling to build a carpet behind the Luga, which was now too weak to stop German penetrations (or to counterattack the spearheads as they drove closer). I was fortunate to get most (but not all) of the industry out of Leningrad, and probably could have held on for a few more weeks had I not put depleted units on the Svir that allowed the Finns in the backdoor. I actually think, however, that this was a blessing in disguise as it allowed me to give up a hopeless fight for Leningrad and shift significant forces down to Moscow, which was under grave threat...Klydon is correct in assuming that once Leningrad fell, I didn't see much purpose in expending more than a token effort to hold back the Finns.

AGC: Given what Klydon has written in other forums, I assumed that Moscow would receive the least attention - thus I was relatively lacksidasical about arming the Western Front and any reserves were sent to Leningrad or to fill in the Southern Dnepr line. This seemed to work ok until two medium 10-ish divison encirclements (maybe around week 9 and 13?) left Moscow without any functioning defenses at all...in fact there was one German end-turn when there was literally nothing between the lead German panzers and Moscow other than aircraft HQs. Thus why the fall of Leningrad was beneficial - these forces plus every other division I could scrape together were sent to begin forming new lines...I was also fortunate to have at least garrisoned Moscow earlier so some forts were in place in the core urban areas.

AGS: I thought I did a relatively good job here, although I would have liked to have held onto Kharkov. One thing that helped me was the diversion of panzers to the Crimea. I know there are varying viewpoints on this but I thought it was a godsend. At the end of the day, the loss of Sevastopol does not create any real broader strategic or industrial threat to the Soviet player, whereas an extra panzer corps pushing towards Stalino could have made my life really miserable...that said there might be other reasons why the Crimea was a better objective for the German, so who knows.

Anyway, it's been fun so far and looking forward to having a crack at the Germans in a month and half (assuming I survive the snow!).

[hfarrish]

I would also say, on factory evacuation, that its really impossible to get everything out - you have to take some risks here and there. I also probably appear to have evacuated less than I actually did since on weapons factories I always tried to evacuate at least 60% of existing production in order to maintain historical (i.e. I never evacuated 1 factory unit just to ensure a factory survived). I also generally always prioritized moving troops before factories...although most turns this didn't amount to a whole lot.

[Klydon]

Some interesting views from Hfarrish and I appreciate him taking the time to come in and make the comments. I do want to make some comments/observations after seeing what he has written on the campaign from his side.

AGN: I think the question has been answered for the most part. If the Germans want Leningrad bad enough, they are going to get it. The only questions come from at what expense do other theaters suffer to make this happen and how long can the Russians drag it out along with not getting a ton of troops caught in the process. I was going to get Leningrad even with out the snafu of the depleted units on the border. That it helped hasten the end of Leningrad is obvious. My original war plans were to evaluate the situation at the point I could release large forces for other duties. In most of my thinking, part of AGN would go into reserve for 42 operations/winter reserves. It takes a bit to get AGN from there to another theater and by then, usually bad weather is at hand. With the early fall, I did one of the other plans I had thought of and that was basically an advance down the Moscow/Leningrad railroad. While at first look, the terrain here is not very good, after you get past the northern rough part of the Valdi Hills, it is fairly open and with a good move from AGC, could result in a fairly large pocket. The pocket did not happen as Hfarrish saw it coming and pulled back. Still, getting PG4 and 18th army into the Moscow area was helpful and allowed me to make a (unsuccessful) push for Moscow in 1941. I should have also railed PG4 to the center as they spent a critical turn or two in "no man's logistic land" on the way there and would have been able to recover some strength.

AGC: As Hfarrish noted, it was no surprise what I would do in the center if anyone has visited the boards on a regular basis. I have posted often about what I consider the lack of a need to push a campaign in 1941 hard in the middle. I would rather pull assets from AGC and help AGN and AGS. AGS needs the help initially to get things going in the south and of course, AGN needs help with Leningrad. That does not mean I just roll over in the middle. I typically leave two panzer corps with AGC to leave some threat there and also to take advantage of opportunities in the center. AGC has most of their initial infantry available, so it is just a question of trying to get it to the front. For most of 1941, no Russian line is going to hold when the German infantry shows up in force. I think I did better here than I thought I would and part of it was due to Hfarrish pulling back repeatedly after I got him for a couple of pockets. He gave up a lot of territory where he could have probably left some rear guards, but that is how it looked to me. Launching the attack on Moscow has been a disappointment for me. The logistics were fairly good and I had 5 panzer corps, 2 1/2 armies worth of infantry and most of the Luftwaffe from AGC and AGN with a fair amount of time. The tanks were tired to a point but it didn't matter against his very deep line of forts. While I managed to push him back and get to the outskirts of Moscow, I have to wonder if I didn't get the job done now, when I will be able to (if ever). Things will hardly look better in 1942, so it just makes me wonder. I was fairly excited to launch my own operation Typhoon if you will.. with a start date of the first of September.. and being closer to Moscow than the Germans were historically.

AGS: I think this is where I have made the most mistakes. I think the panzer corps attack out of Rumania was a good shock and is a viable strategy. The issue is I went the wrong way with it. In retrospect, I had the Crimea reduced to the bottlenecks and could have continued to advance instead of taking it out. I was influenced from the fact that in almost any AAR I have seen, the Crimea has been an issue during the winter for the Germans unless they take it out. I should have continued east and would have been able to put some serious heat on the Stalino area much earlier than I did. The second major mistake was not blasting over the Dnepr when I had my armor concentrated and just east of Kiev. Instead, I did a big encirclement in the river bend to get rid of his carpet. While successful, it took me 3 turns to get my panzers back fully in supply and also to get more infantry up to the front. Hfarrish used the time well in order to not only put up a solid river line, but even multiple lines behind it so that any break through I had would have been contained and subject to counter attack. I also need to rework my strategy with the 17th army as well in the opening.

For the most part, I have to say I am disappointed I have not bagged more industry and done better at causing Russian casualties, but I also have to remember this is my first game against a real opponent and Hfarrish has shown himself to be a good Russian player.

[Klydon]

Turn 19 start. Recon mostly done. No attacks by the Russians this turn.

Note the Russian reserves forming up well behind the lines. Gee, I wonder where they are going? [:D]

[Klydon]

Turn 19 start after most recon AGS. Some reserves forming up down here as well. No attacks here either, which is somewhat surprising.

[Klydon]

Turn 19 OOB, losses, etc.

[Klydon]

Turn 19 production. This is just German production and the pools. Plenty of AA stuff now since I scrapped a pile of AA companies. I have 4 German panzer divisions that have Russian tanks in them, including T-26 tanks. (yuk).

[Q-Ball]

Why not occupy that open ground in front of Belgorod? If you don't want it, you can always hand it back first turn of Blizzard, giving those units a one-turn break while he "flips" it to Soviet.

[Peltonx]

What did u destory for industry?

Looks like you had a good summer. German players only need to get to the bottleneck to seal the Crimea for several years. 5 divisions can seal it and most times you "trap" 15 to 20 Russian divisions. I personally think just holding the bottleneck is just as good as taking it vs good players. Its not like you be able to cross over.

Start digging hehehe, you need to get to atleast level 2 forts 2 deep. Level 3 really cuts down on losses and gets you through December in most cases.

Good luck during the blizzard.

Pelton

[Ketza]

Your front in the south is very close to where mine was against 76mm.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Why not occupy that open ground in front of Belgorod? If you don't want it, you can always hand it back first turn of Blizzard, giving those units a one-turn break while he "flips" it to Soviet.

Good question. I need guys to dig and I could either dig next to Belgorod or dig where I am. The issue with digging right next to him is it gives him several hexes where he can do 3 hex attacks. With the lines I have now, he doesn't get nearly the 3 hex attacks he would have had.

At least that is my story..

and I am sticking to it. [:D]

[Klydon]

@ Pelton

After talking to Hfarrish and finding out he was able to evac the Odessa and Kerch industry, despite having the rail lines cut (they can still evac industry since they are ports. Just use rail movement and move industry like you normally do), my industry count is terrible. I think it is 20 HI and 16 armaments. I did not force him to move the Moscow stuff either or Tula, so he is going to have all that working for him.

I do have 5 HI and 29 armaments pinned in Stalino. Taking it will be another matter during snow. I have 4 hexes to work from, but after the debacle with Kharkov (9 division attack with tons of air support against 2 infantry divisions led to me barely winning despite having over 1000 guns and a 6 to 1 advantage in manpower) I am not holding my breath. I got some fresh re-enforcements coming in to help out and I am busy moving pioneer units into the area. Stalino will be the target of my winter offensive and I will likely do very little besides that given how things have been going against entrenched Russians although I may try some spoiling attacks here and there, but the only other goals will be to liquidate the pockets (those units will not come back for free) and get things ready for the winter onslaught. I have not caused a lot of casualties to him compared to other games I have seen, so I am expecting to get hammered. The one thing I do have going is my lines are about as short as you can get them.

I will be posting some winter plans and ideas I have been thinking on from the start of the campaign.

[Klydon]

I have been trying to clip some strategic rail junctions to hinder the Russians during their blizzard offensive. This is probably the best example. A couple of turns ago, I attacked the lower red X hex. I didn't take it, but rather I wanted to damage the rail lines going into it. With the capture of the upper rail junction (top red X), the rail line along the dashed red line is out of commission and the Russian units in the area must now trace supplies overland to the green rail line. The result is the units in the middle should hopefully run out of gas quickly if Hfarrish decides to launch a winter offensive in this area. It will also be very difficult for Hfarrish to send fresh troops to this area.

[Klydon]

German rail net turn 19 start. The 5 rail repair guys I control are the orange circles. The direction they are going is marked in orange. A major mistake on my part as I missed a continuous rail line near D-town and have to send the rail repair unit back to fix it. The bad news is it won't have enough movement this turn to fix it this turn.

I should shortly have a north south line that is fairly safe that I can move troops around if needed.

As can be seen, I have a issue in the 9th and 6th army as the rail head is not near. This in part is on purpose as I plan on giving ground here during the winter and I had planned on this since the start of the campaign. Part of the reason is to hopefully draw the Russians out during the winter into relatively open terrain to set them up for a encirclement in 1942 from north and south. There is relatively little of value here in terms of population, etc. I got a bit further than I had thought so that is why this area in particular looks bad for rail support. I do need to get a rail line going SE from Vyazma to Kaluga, but you can't fix everything everywhere. How much Hfarrish cooperates with this strategy remains to be seen, but it is the weak point in the German line for sure with the fewest fortifications and in terms of troop strength for a given area.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I have been trying to clip some strategic rail junctions to hinder the Russians during their blizzard offensive. This is probably the best example. A couple of turns ago, I attacked the lower red X hex. I didn't take it, but rather I wanted to damage the rail lines going into it. With the capture of the upper rail junction (top red X), the rail line along the dashed red line is out of commission and the Russian units in the area must now trace supplies overland to the green rail line. The result is the units in the middle should hopefully run out of gas quickly if Hfarrish decides to launch a winter offensive in this area. It will also be very difficult for Hfarrish to send fresh troops to this area.

That's a good plan but be aware of this. On my game my major push was in an area far from railheads. Contradictory or not, it's what happened. The lack of enemy fortified hexes there might explain it. In any case, this means the Red Army may hurt you the same, so beware [:)]

Fortify, fortify and fortify. That's what is going to save you [8D] But no forts... make testament, really, because nothing can stop the Soviet hordes.