War in the West

[GARY L]

Hi

How is this coming along?

Will it have it's own Forum soon?

[Joel Billings]

It's coming along, but is far from having it's own forum. Still in early data/design stages.

[GARY L]

Thanks Joel

[ETF]

Stay tuned for another few years I would imagine

[delatbabel]

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]

[Panama]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]

[:D][:D][:D]

+1

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]

Exactly! Like Spain in the Napoleonic wars, something of a backyard thing while the really interesting stuff is happening somewhere else.

[Harrybanana]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I wouldn't bother. Despite what you see in Hollywood movies, the Western Front was just a sideshow. Nice of Mr Harris and crew to knock the German production about, and good that they eventually staged a landing to act as a bit of a distraction, but the real war was fought at the gates of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kharkov, Kursk, Prokhorovka, etc. [;)]

Exactly! Like Spain in the Napoleonic wars, something of a backyard thing while the really interesting stuff is happening somewhere else.

Without question the most important theatre in the the War in Europe was Eastern Europe and it was in Russia that the outcome of the War was primarily decided. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Western Europe (and I include North Africa here) was a "side show" or a "backyard thing." Indeed for the first 22 months of the War (ie roughly 1/3rd of the entire War) it was the "front yard" and the "only show". Important battles (albeit often on a smaller scale) were fought in the West as well. Had the Axis conquered England or the Middle East oil fields or won the Battle of the Atlantic the consequences would have been felt in Russia and elsewhere.

As for "interesting stuff" (as opposed to "important stuff") I would argue that the War in the West was more interesting as the players are given more strategic choices. For the Axis you have to decide whether or not to invade Norway, or England, or Spain, or Malta, etc. For the Allies, of course, you have to decide where and when to invade.

Of course, you may have simply been talking about the time period that 2by3 is going to cover with it's War in the West game and not the entire War in the West, which I suppose are different things. Even so, I for one am looking forward to the game.

[colberki]

Yes, I am ready to pre-order WITW![:D]

[Zakhal]

Just france/italy or north africa too? That would be full of awesome.

[Joel Billings]

We're planning on several different games that will together cover the entire War in the West. The first is 43-45 Italy/France, the next will probably be Norway/France/Med (with Italy) in 1940, with another game being the Med 41 to mid-43 (by Med I mean the area surrounding the land areas surrounding the Med). That's the current plan anyway. The 1940 and 41-43 games will both include a major new naval addition to the WitE game system. It will not be WitP (not at that level of detail), but it will be a fully designed naval system to work in conjunction with the WitE rules.

[Michael T]

Sounds good, thank you Joel.

[Scook_99]

A full working naval system too? Cool! Hrmmmm, will this lead to one day a strategic game encompassing all of Europe done at division/regimental scale? Whew, just the thought of doing a turn once everyone is in play gives me the chills.

[Zakhal]

ORIGINAL: Scook_99

A full working naval system too? Cool! Hrmmmm, will this lead to one day a strategic game encompassing all of Europe done at division/regimental scale? Whew, just the thought of doing a turn once everyone is in play gives me the chills.

I think Ill just start with 1940 game and then continue by playing three games together day-by-day aka war in the east 1941, war in the med 1941 (if lost continue with italy/france 43-) and war in the pacific 1941.

Im allready doing it with WITE. I play one week WITE and then seven days of WITP (same dates). I kind of have a house rule that if axis win either campaign they win the whole war.

[Wild]

I believe the plan is to join these games together (except WitP) to make one game War in Europe which there is talk of having control over your production.

I can't wait!!

[Panama]

One word. Europa.

About as many parts too.

[gargoil]

ORIGINAL: Wild

I believe the plan is to join these games together (except WitP) to make one game War in Europe which there is talk of having control over your production.

I can't wait!!

ORIGINAL: Panama

One word. Europa.

About as many parts too.

SPI produced the War in the East cardboard wargame back in the 70's. It also produced War in the West and a compliation - War In Europe. War in Europe has enjoyed some success as a Vassel game. Europa was even more ambitous, but I lost track of it after awhile.

I played War in Europe extensive in my wargaming club. Great game. GG and Matrix can really put themselves as the leader and greatest computer wargame producers ever by put that together. I think your going to be able to get a lot of crossover customers from the HOI and WIF fans out there.

[gradenko2k]

If WITE is any indication, the Allied Air Force in the 43-45 Italy/France game is going to bomb the bejesus out of the Luftwaffe.

Although on that note, I wonder if the Allied player is going to be expected to manage the strategic bombing campaign as well, since ostensibly that's what the Bomb City mission is for as far as taking out factories are concerned.

[heliodorus04]

I'm going to take one of my big guns out of its carrying case and take a shot at Matrix:

Given how poorly the actual combat mechanics of War in the East, and how utterly pointless the so-called "Strategic Decisions" available to the Germans are, there's simply no way in hell I'll buy a War in the West product.

Just as Germany is bound to its winter 1941 demise, France will be bound to its no-reserves charge into Belgium.

But wait, maybe I'm wrong and France will be given complete freedom of command and control exactly as the Soviets are in 1941. In that case, Germany players can re-create the stalemate of Verdun as France players erect a perfect grid of brigades forward soaking up German MPs and combined stacks of French armor and infantry creating Schwerpunkts.

What's that? There will be a Norway campaign? Well, with the British and French having to ship in and ship out divisions as their historical counterpart does, that should be a gripping campaign as you invade Narvik only to have to withdraw the troops 4 weeks later. How about a Dutch campaign where the only counter the Dutch get to move is the royal family? Maybe Denmark can hold out until 50 soldiers are killed!

Will a US invasion be required on June 6, 1944? Will US Supply be modeled perfectly so that every division from Caan to St. Lo has exactly enough to launch full-frontal attacks?

Will an Allied player ever even need to launch Market Garden when you can just grind down German infantry turn after turn all across the front? What earthly point will there be for the Germans to do anything other than enact major forts along every major river from the Somme to the Elbe?

I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I'm going to take one of my big guns out of its carrying case and take a shot at Matrix:

Actually you're getting out the flamethrower, man.

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
I get the impression from my time with Gary Grigsby games that his games start with a foregone conclusion about who will win and how, then he piles a bunch of ridiculous and unnecessary statistics into it covering the range of rifle grenades, the top armor for 79 Porsche turrets for Tiger IIs, and how many kettenkrads were produced in a given month from 43 to 45, he throws all that stuff in until his program is dripping with pointless calculations that overpower the mathematical dynamics of combined arms warfare, and calls it a game.

If there are Püppchen in WiTW it will be an instant buy for many people:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
When it turns out to be 1-dimensional, and exploitable to the point of absurdity, someone quotes Glanz and says that's very realistic.

Here you're over-generalizing. And in general, you're assuming that WiTW will just be WiTE with a different map and OOB (and no First Winter). I think it'll be quite a different game, very much as WiTE will be much different from what it is now when WitW sees the light.