Forts in 42

[Klydon]

I know the fort thing has been beated like a dead horse, but I also don't want to clutter a couple of AAR's with the conversation and wanted to move it someplace else.

The basic issue is forts in 41 are close to about right. (one exception, which I will go into here in a second). The current fort scheme is probably ok in 43 as well. The huge issue is 1942.

Part of getting forts "right" is both sides need them; the Russians early and mid game and the Germans mid game and late. Anything done to nerf forts in general will mean it is that much easier for the Russians to just destroy the Germans that much faster in the later stages of the game and also throw off the casualty ratio. Nerfing will also hurt the Russians in 1941 when it is hard enough to stop the Germans in most cases as it is.

I think as time goes along, we are seeing more and more 1942 AARs where the Germans simply have no chance to launch a semi-historical "major operation" type of campaign against a Russian who all too often is dug in at least 4 deep of level 3 and 4 forts. The Germans simply can't penetrate this type of defense in most cases. On the other hand, if forts are taken out of the equation, the Germans can basically have their way far to easily which is not really desirable either. The result is typically that the Germans will "turtle" and go on the defensive themselves, building fortifications in depth as much as possible and we have nothing really going on during 1942 when in most games between two even opponents, 1942 should see a lot of back and forth and movement.

One thing that needs to be nerfed is the city bonus to construction. As one of my off again/on again side games, I am playing the Russians vs the AI. As any Russian knows, you get a lot of units that are shells; very little to them, including tank brigades. I typically put about half the tank brigades I get on refit and the other half are just allowed to sit and get replacements normally. The ones I do that with typically are in the back someplace around a city busy digging. As you can imagine, the construction value is very, very low on those units, but because of the city bonus, I get to level 2 fortifications at a pretty fast clip, just because the tank brigade is there. Now, should the front come in, all of a sudden, I have at least a level 2 fortification that can hold and take care of 3 rifle divisions if necessary. That is silly to have a unit with less than 1000 guys be able to facilitate that type of construction. How to fix this? I start with the city bonus for construction to a hex can't exceed the construction value of the unit(s) in the hex.

I assume most Russian players like building lots of RR construction brigades and Sapper regiments. With construction values ranging from 20 to 40 per unit, this is a very easy way to just totally jack up the construction value of units that can't otherwise dig worth a lick. So my question is does it sound right to have say a tank brigade of 1k guys with a construction value of 2 that is attached to a HQ that has a pile of RR construction brigades and sapper regiments and presto, you got a level 2/3 fort in nothing flat? That is what seems to happen. If I can ever get some time, maybe I will do some testing on this in the middle of Russian someplace, but I suspect its an issue. Should a nerf on this type of activity take place? Probably so. As I think about this more, I think this is what is going on to enable the Russians to build 4 deep level 3 and 4 fort lines. They have the units to do that late in 41 and into 42. I think something to look at is some type of cap based on the unit(s) construction value in the hex, but it should be more than the city cap; perhaps double or triple at most.

Something like this still allows the Russians to build a defense in depth (ala Kursk) and also fortify heavily, but it would reduce the overall ease of the Russians putting down massive amounts of fort spam from even the smallest units.

Comments/suggestions/etc are welcome; fire away. Perhaps we will come up with something to help out on this issue that works across the time line of the game.

[JAMiAM]

I've posted this elsewhere, but am copying it here, since it is germaine to the discussion...

With regard to the fort issue, I still believe that the most elegant solution to this problem is to restrict the ability to transition from level 2 > level 3 fort to those hexes that have a FZ, FR, City, or Urban terrain feature present in the hex. This would be the simplest to code.

For the Soviets in 1941/1942, it would create some tough decisions as to how they should allocate their precious AP pool. Early on, it would force a decision between setting up some prime rear area locations (Leningrad's "backdoor", Perekop Isthmus, etc.) for Level 3+ building, and the creation of the "Soviet All-Stars command reshuffle, and the typical restoring of the C&C disaster in the first few turns. Later on, it will create AP spending tension for setting up good belts around important locations, and the need to conserve APs for the transition to the more "modern" Soviet Army structure. At present, there is little in the way of resource spending tension in these crucial points in time, as the Soviets (as demonstrated) can simply carpet their rear areas and have 50-70 mile thick bands of level 3-4 forts across virtually the entire front by the time Summer 42 rolls around.

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

[ComradeP]

We're debating this on the tester forum too, it has also been beaten to death there, but it's always good to have a new discussion about a problem.

I'd say the city population construction bonus isn't a problem, we are talking about thousands of civilians with shovels after all and they were not always digging in the presence of what in WitE terms are on-map military units. I'd be in favour of reducing the range of city population assists to fort construction, as 8 hexes is quite generous, but I wouldn't be in favour of adding an artificial construction value bonus cap when they're helping shells.

[Ketza]

Its not the extra forts near the cities that are an issue. The fact that civilians helped build them is both historical and makes sense. Its the blankets of level 3 and 4 forts in the middle of nowhere that are impacting the game is a very strategic way.

There currently is no real price to pay on either side for these types of defenses. Let the players decide if they want guns or cement and let them live with their choice.

[Flaviusx]

We will continue the dead horse beatings until morale goes up.

Joking aside, the issue merits discussion. I for one am looking at ideas from the playerbase here, a fresh perspective on the problem might help nail it down.

[Ketza]

Its always an interesting discussion even if the horse is dead.

Long live the dead horse!

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Its not the extra forts near the cities that are an issue. The fact that civilians helped build them is both historical and makes sense. Its the blankets of level 3 and 4 forts in the middle of nowhere that are impacting the game is a very strategic way.

There currently is no real price to pay on either side for these types of defenses. Let the players decide if they want guns or cement and let them live with their choice.

I don't necessarily disagree with you in principle about fortifications around cities, but even if you put a very short leash on the range (3 hexes for example), the cities are just spread out enough that although there would be some areas that would not be fortified as heavily, but these areas are relatively small and would be more of a choke point situation. The range would have to be perhaps 1 hex or 2 hexes tops.

[Q-Ball]

I personally like the AP expenditure for certain forts, as it simulates how resources are allocated, and basically keeps the level of "Field" forts to level 2, unless you spend the APs.

As JAM right points out, for the Soviets this will create choices; for the Germans, they have excess APs anyway, at least I do after 1941, unless I am doing something wrong.

Off topic on forts, but the other 1942 problem is the condition of the Wehrmacht. Forts is just one element. To me, any winter morale penalties should be gone at the end of Blizzard, or maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place. The CV penalty serves to knock the Germans down for the Blizzard. Either way, the Wehrmacht needs to be 70-ish morale at least, with Panzers able to push that up a bit more.

The other thing would be to give the Germans a one-time drop into their Manpower pool during the spring, to help flesh-out formations, and represent the mobilization for Fall Blau

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Off topic on forts, but the other 1942 problem is the condition of the Wehrmacht. Forts is just one element. To me, any winter morale penalties should be gone at the end of Blizzard, or maybe they shouldn't be there in the first place. The CV penalty serves to knock the Germans down for the Blizzard. Either way, the Wehrmacht needs to be 70-ish morale at least, with Panzers able to push that up a bit more.

The other thing would be to give the Germans a one-time drop into their Manpower pool during the spring, to help flesh-out formations, and represent the mobilization for Fall Blau

+1 on this. The Germans recovered quite a bit of moral compared to the blizzard period as the weather improved. Perhaps a boost at some point with a cap not going over national moral.

[kvolk]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Its not the extra forts near the cities that are an issue. The fact that civilians helped build them is both historical and makes sense. Its the blankets of level 3 and 4 forts in the middle of nowhere that are impacting the game is a very strategic way.

There currently is no real price to pay on either side for these types of defenses. Let the players decide if they want guns or cement and let them live with their choice.

In my short time playing this to me is the issue in 42. I get how civilan pop can assist with fortifications etc but not in the middle of the russian steppes. Much of the German campaigning in 42 cam about in the mid to south part of the the country because of this issue. Mid to north was just a choatic mess because of terrain and fortifications that could be buildt using the terrian to help. To me some kind of mode would help like when you go to static mode there is a loss of combat power so if you going into fortify mode your toe is reduced and your combat power is lost. You could also only make this come into effect only if you are at level 2 fort already.

I would add that forts seem to be as strong in the clear as they are in tougher terrain which I think is also an issue. Build good forts in clear terrain should be more costly and less efficient and they should be less effective. Maybe the terrain can modify how high the fort level can get to.

[Tarhunnas]

Myself I think the Soviets are too strong, and get too strong too early. I have a couple of suggestions.

* Let it take longer for evacuated factories to come on line.

* Let it take longer for new Soviet formations to become fleshed out, and make it even slower unless they are say 12 hexes from the front. Historically the Soviets had reserve armies sitting around far behind the front for a large part of the 1942 campaign, while players will put everything in the carpet.

* More penalties to manpower and production for losing cities. All industry couldn't be packed up and moved just like that. This would also give the Soviets more incentive to not give up ground.

[Mynok]

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

FZs require something the Germans are extremely short of in the later war: manpower. They cannot keep their infantry at decent TOEs as it is. Making FZs the only way to build 3+ forts will make the German demise even faster. One German div even at 100% TOE in level 2 forts is dead meat in 43. Dead meat.

[Tarhunnas]

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

FZs require something the Germans are extremely short of in the later war: manpower. They cannot keep their infantry at decent TOEs as it is. Making FZs the only way to build 3+ forts will make the German demise even faster. One German div even at 100% TOE in level 2 forts is dead meat in 43. Dead meat.

The Germans used impressed or more or less volontary civilian labor to build fortification lines. Maybe German FZs could require less manpower than at present, as civilians would make a contribution too.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Myself I think the Soviets are too strong, and get too strong too early. I have a couple of suggestions.

* Let it take longer for evacuated factories to come on line.

* Let it take longer for new Soviet formations to become fleshed out, and make it even slower unless they are say 12 hexes from the front. Historically the Soviets had reserve armies sitting around far behind the front for a large part of the 1942 campaign, while players will put everything in the carpet.

* More penalties to manpower and production for losing cities. All industry couldn't be packed up and moved just like that. This would also give the Soviets more incentive to not give up ground.

These are not bad ideas, the only problem is that it could create a very bad loop for the Soviet player who is a bit behind. If they lose too many factories, they can't get any replacements in line, and will probably lose more factories...etc. That would make 1941 all about factory capture, more than it is already. Maybe increasing the damage isn't a bad thing.

I posted about helping the Wehrmacht; IMO, the Blizzard morale penalty for sitting outside should go

[neuromancer]

The horse isn't dead, its big and fat and blocking everyone else from getting in or out of the damn barn! And we need to figure out what to do with it. Unfortunately we need the horse, so shooting it and chopping it up with a chainsaw isn't an option.
 
As a note, Matrix admits there is a problem with forts, but don't know what to do about them (Sabre or Joel said so in a thread, sorry, don't remember which).
 
Fortifications above a certain level take a lot of work.
 
The way I see it - and I admit I could be wrong - Level 1 may be digging basic foxholes, some sandbags, some barbed wire fencing, digging in guns and so on; this is something troops do as a matter of course if they are going to be in an area for any length of time.
 
Level 2 is expanding on those entrenchments, making some simple bunkers out of wood and sandbags, maybe some minefields, more carefully positioned machine gun nests and AT gun positioning, barbed wire rolled out in quantity, camouflage and so forth (the Germans were big on hidden AT guns that wouldn't open up until the tanks were in prime position, a trick they pulled on both the Soviets and Western Allies on multiple occasions). Still, this is something that could be done without too much issue, mostly just requiring time.
 
But level 3 and 4 is where you start to get complicated. There you start building serious walls, tank traps, dragon's teeth, digging in to the point you are digging trench works and bunkers not foxholes. Level 4 probably involves serious concrete work.
 
I think any professional military unit with enough manpower should be able to - with time - set up Level 2 entrenchments. But they should be below a certain fatigue level (its hard work), shouldn't be in Refit, and unit morale and experience should affect how quickly they work (it may already be affected by those, but if it isn't, it should).
 
Level 3 and 4 should require several things - an AP expenditure for each level (even one is something, there is some planning to be done there), supply for each level (they are using up 'stuff' to make these more involved entrenchments), and a construction unit to provide specialized heavier equipment that military units don't usually carry with them (I suppose a regular unit could still do it without a construction unit in their immediate HQ SU pool, or in the same hex, but it would be much slower as they make do without the proper tools). And they still can't be on refit, below a certain fatigue, and the speed is affected by morale and experience. Obviously an 'entrench' toggle (probably on the same button as Reserve and Refit) would be necessary for these higher ranking forts. Could even turn it on for the lower ranking forts to indicate they are digging more quickly - but a unit entrenching isn't going to recover fatigue, and in fact will probably build it up.
 
Did I mention that it's hard work? [;)]
 
Determining the exact speed, AP and supply costs, fatigue limits and build up, and how moral and experience affects the speed would take some tweaking to get the right balance.
 
Also, a level 1 and 2 fort should degrade pretty quickly if no one is in the hex.
 
Level 3 and 4s should degrade slowly as they are more akin to permanent structures.
 
In the end I think you'd still end up with a lot of level 1 and 2 forts all over - although hopefully fading away after a few months if not maintained - but the number of level 3 and 4 forts should be drastically reduced. In between actually having to decide to do it as opposed to a unit that just happened to be in a hex having created a massive fortification out of boredom is one thing, but the requirements of AP and supply will also be an issue.
 
 

* Let it take longer for new Soviet formations to become fleshed out, and make it even slower unless they are say 12 hexes from the front. Historically the Soviets had reserve armies sitting around far behind the front for a large part of the 1942 campaign, while players will put everything in the carpet.

 
It actually takes quite a long time for a new unit to be ready for combat.  The Germans would sometimes make a new unit with a core drawn from another unit, and it would still take months for a unit to be ready for combat.  A unit made up of raw recruits would take more time, and perform rather poorly for their first few battles until they got a sense of what war actually is.
 
The early SS units performed very poorly in Poland because they were poorly led and trained (being more political than military - and believing that 'fighting spirit' was more important than anything else, resulting in very high casualty rates).  Even after the SS decided to try to act like a real army, many SS units performed poorly in battle, and most of the ones that were noted for their ability needed an influx of regular Wehrmacht soldiers and officers before they were able to perform particularly well in the field (too many officers promoted for their loyalty to the Nazi party rather than actual ability, which was the opposite of the professional Wehrmacht - although there were exceptions).
 
 

+1 on this. The Germans recovered quite a bit of morale compared to the blizzard period as the weather improved. Perhaps a boost at some point with a cap not going over national moral.

 
+1 to the +1
 
"It's warm again!  Thank God!  Let's get those damn commies!"
 

[herwin]

Look at the fortification rules in the OCS Burma game.

[Uxbridge]

Not a solution in itself, but perhaps a source for further thougth: why not make fort construction dependent on enemy proximity? If within 4 hexes, automatic construction up to level 4 (as now); within 8 hexes automatic construction up to level 3; within 15 hexes automatic construction up to level 2. If proximity condition not met, ADM point must be expended. In the latter case, however, once comenced, the construction will continue as now up to level 4 unless unit leaves hex. This would do away with the rather silly construction activities far behind the front unless specifically desired.

A rule as such would also have the benefit of making the Russian sir Robin strategy of 1941 less beneficial.

This does not solve the problem with a 4 line front, bristling with level 4 forts, though. That's a really tricky one.

Added: Regarding the 4 line forts, maybe one could use enemy proximity there as well. The system doesn't build a 4-level fort, if there's another 4-level fort within 1 hex and closer to the nearest enemy unit unless an ADM point is expended. The same is true for the next level and the next. Thus, in theory, a thick line that has been prepared for some time, will have strong fortifications at the immediate front, but very weak ones further back.

[BletchleyGeek]

Let me repost part of the discussion we were having on Q-Ball vs Tarhunnas AAR:

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

ORIGINAL: Ketza

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I dislike anything that mixes forts and APs. I think this game relies too much as it is on APs to solve everything, and this just leads to a lot of accounting trickery with APs.

There's got to be a better way than that.

I think the AP system has a lot of potential to make the game better.

I look at APs as a sort of national "logistics pool". You could potentially give the players a lot of flexibility by using them for various things to make the game more interesting. You can also utilize them in a system that restricts players from overdoing things that work too well. This is done with HQ buildups and it works fine in its latest variation in my opinion. To me fort construction after level 2 should fall into this category. I think its much more realistic and will make the game more interesting if both sides have to decide where the forts go and how much effort will be put into them. Your not taking them away your just making players invest something into them other then a few brigades out of the line for awhile.

Rather than AP's, I would set limits to the reachable Fortification level depending on the construction value of the units in the hex. SU's would only speed up the process, but not count towards this limit. Same thing for keeping the forts: you need some minimum level of construction points in the hex to avoid it to decay.

My guess is that someone has already thought of something like this.

Actually both Flavius and JaMIaM have.

ORIGINAL: BletchleyGeek

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I've suggested decay mechanisms, yes. With decay penalties increasing dramatically as you get farther away from the front.

I've even suggested placing hard caps on fort levels, again depending on distance from the front. So you cannot just drop a 4 strength fort line 10 hexes in the rear.

These would be far easier from an adminsitrative standpoint than APs. APs get gamed, and the more duties get offloaded on APs, the more they get gamed.

Tying fort cap and decay to the number of construction points in hex would account for distance from the front in an indirect way. Say you need to stack the equivalent of 3 rifle divisions to reach level 2. No level 4 lines 10 hexes in the rear, and it wouldn't be very intelligent to pile up 45 divisionsto get a 15-hex line 10 hexes in the rear just for the sake of it - such an amount of force would be possibly be needed at the front, or elsewhere.

However, this would totally gimp Germany in 1943. No forts, no chance of stopping - or at least damaging - the incoming blows. A possible counter for this could be to dramatically increase attacker casualties unless a certain ratio between fort level (defender) and engineer support level (attacker) is met. Something like the "extra free shots on attacking russians" the axis get. Perhaps this is already accounted for in the tactical combat simulation model, I can't say.

A global element is also missing. Hard caps/level decay linked to the amount of construction points in the hex doesn't introduce any kind of global limiting factor. One option would be to impose a "hard" limiting factor, a "build" pool very much like the motor pool is regarding logistics and general combat efficiency, which would influence how fast can forts be improved or improved at all. But this mechanism would probably add a lot of complexity to logistics phase computation and, more grievously, the player wouldn't have control over what hexes get build first (which is of the utmost importance).

An option would be to make FZ's the key for achieving really high fort levels (3, 4, 5). This would require AP expenditure, but one which I don't think it would be easy to game away. These units would tie TOE elements, vehicles and supplies for extended periods of time. If want to build you have to concentrate your forces and/or tie substantial amounts of resources to the land.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

ORIGINAL: Mynok

The argument that the mid-to-late war Axis *needs* to be able to build high level forts is not negated by this proposed change and indeed, the Axis really have little to spend their APs on in that period. Requiring them to build the FZs to break the Level 3 threshold will be most felt in the need for replacements to go into the FZs (at least temporarily) as they are built, reducing the manpower and armaments to flesh out their army. However, this is still, in my opinion, a more realistic condition, reflecting the redirection of resources on their side.

FZs require something the Germans are extremely short of in the later war: manpower. They cannot keep their infantry at decent TOEs as it is. Making FZs the only way to build 3+ forts will make the German demise even faster. One German div even at 100% TOE in level 2 forts is dead meat in 43. Dead meat.

The Germans used impressed or more or less volontary civilian labor to build fortification lines. Maybe German FZs could require less manpower than at present, as civilians would make a contribution too.

I agree with Tarhunnas. But tweaking the FZ TOE is something the player can do by setting Max TOE parameter. Construction can be boosted by attaching German Labor battalions (though that costs AP's). As an alternative, FZ's could be attached to the RHG HQ's, which could be used as "festung commands", with construction SU's attached. Besides that, perhaps German FZs should be benefitting from similar construction bonus rates than the Soviets do in occupied territory.

A different thing, which should account also for Klydon concerns is what I suggest about boosting defenders firepower when attackers don't bring enough engineering support to overcome fieldworks.

EDIT: Improved redaction a bit.

[Joel Billings]

We've been watching and discussing the 42 fort and morale issue for the past few weeks. Due to summer vacations and the need to complete the recent official patch and the German version, we decided to hold off making any changes for a few weeks and continue to review the information coming in. There were several ideas kicked around for the past month, and I expect there will be some adjustments made in these areas in upcoming patches. Sorting through possible changes and their overlapping effects on gameplay creates some caution in jumping to a quick fix. Mostly I wanted to let players know that we are continuing to discuss and work on changes to improve the game.