Expansion Discussion - Borders/Territory

[Harmonious Hegemony]

At the risk of derailing what is shaping up to be a stellar class flame war, I have an idea for this topic to put up for discussion.

How about implementing the concept of "Spheres of Influence", something like Civ had/has (I think). A sphere of influence would be the strongest at the center of population for an empire and weaken with distance. Colonies that fell under another empire's SOI would have an increased likelihood of going over to them. This wouldn't establish borders per se, but would have the effect of controlling expansion, so that empires would have to grow from the center outward rather than helter-skelter across the entire map. You could colonize to your heart's content without penalty right up until you bump into another empire. Then, if you try to push too far into his territory you are likely to lose your colony. Maybe this could be mitigated with heavy garrisoning. If you think about it, its not so unbelievable that if you send out a colony ship to colonize a planet in the heart of another empire, that they might just see a greater advantage to leaving yours and joining up with the local powers that be. This would also allow for some overlap at the frontiers, where no empire has dominant influence.

All in all, this seems to me to accomplish most of what people are looking for from the borders/territory concept without creating the artificial restrictions that some are worried about. I'm not a professional programmer, but it also doesn't seem to me too difficult for CF to implement. What do you think?

[Data]

I think that's exactly what GalCiv and other similar games did and it seems to be the trend. Influence and culture push, influence starbases and such. There are pros and cons to it, as I said previously I'd have no problem to play either way but I would like this setup as an option so who wants it can check it and who doesn't want it can uncheck it.

[Igard]

HH, I'm thinking that is probably the way Elliot is going to go with it. I'd love to be able to establish a more complex system than just that, but essentially I think you're right. To compromise between those who like the freedom to colonise where they want, but also penalise them for getting in another empires territory.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Could it be ... is it possible... that he's gotten psychiatric help?

Did I miss something that would justify this personal attack? Because if I didn't, knock it off. Personal attacks are against the forum rules.

Regards,

- Erik

[Facedrop]

Erik the bane of flamewars[&o]

[Data]

The man with the stick has returned

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Did I miss something that would justify this personal attack? Because if I didn't, knock it off. Personal attacks are against the forum rules.

If you wish to enforce forum rules, perhaps you should go through the thread - he actually started the whole personal attacks, and has continued it.

Granted, I shouldn't have sunk to his level - but there was no action from anyone in authority.

[Igard]

So if someone disagrees with you. You take it as a personal attack? And respond with several serious below the belt, personal attacks. Very volatile.

You know what. Never mind. Back on the green button for you.

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

At the risk of derailing what is shaping up to be a stellar class flame war.

How about implementing the concept of "Spheres of Influence", something like Civ had/has (I think). A sphere of influence would be the strongest at the center of population for an empire and weaken with distance. Colonies that fell under another empire's SOI would have an increased likelihood of going over to them. This wouldn't establish borders per se, but would have the effect of controlling expansion, so that empires would have to grow from the center outward rather than helter-skelter across the entire map. You could colonize to your heart's content without penalty right up until you bump into another empire. Then, if you try to push too far into his territory you are likely to lose your colony. Maybe this could be mitigated with heavy garrisoning. If you think about it, its not so unbelievable that if you send out a colony ship to colonize a planet in the heart of another empire, that they might just see a greater advantage to leaving yours and joining up with the local powers that be. This would also allow for some overlap at the frontiers, where no empire has dominant influence.

All in all, this seems to me to accomplish most of what people are looking for from the borders/territory concept without creating the artificial restrictions that some are worried about. I'm not a professional programmer, but it also doesn't seem to me too difficult for CF to implement. What do you think?

Please derail the flame wars... PLEASE

As to your real question: I thinks spheres of influence is a cool idea -- I am not sure how that would effect colonization but it certainly play its hand in diplomacy and other factors as welll... Although we see that in our colony standings; just last night i saw 'in awe of empires around us...' Maybe this could be explanded on... [:)]

[Harmonious Hegemony]

The way I see it you could send ships to colonize anywhere, its just that as they get farther from your empire's core and more into another empires sphere you stand an increasing chance (increasing with distance and time) of them changing sides. This would allow for fuzzy frontiers but would tend to keep an empire's core area free from interlopers.

The biggest problem I am having with the current "birds nest" approach is its effect on conducting wars. It's all but impossible to put up an organized defense. Of course this is just my take on things. I guess I played SE5 for too long [:)]

I think you are right though, as the mechanism for colonies going over to another empire is already in the game. I am thinking that this means it wouldn't be too tough for CF to implement if they decide to.

[Kal Naar]

ORIGINAL: Harmonious Hegemony

The way I see it you could send ships to colonize anywhere, its just that as they get farther from your empire's core and more into another empires sphere you stand an increasing chance (increasing with distance and time) of them changing sides. This would allow for fuzzy frontiers but would tend to keep an empire's core area free from interlopers.

The biggest problem I am having with the current "birds nest" approach is its effect on conducting wars. It's all but impossible to put up an organized defense. Of course this is just my take on things. I guess I played SE5 for too long [:)]

I think you are right though, as the mechanism for colonies going over to another empire is already in the game. I am thinking that this means it wouldn't be too tough for CF to implement if they decide to.

Good idea,

There should also be some distance penalty applied to the private ships transporting goods and migrants, that could reduce growth rate for the colony.
This could be achieved by increased attrition caused by pirates or privateer from other empires that are closer to or on the path to the colony.
As the game is now, I hardly see interceptions, shouldn't pirates use hyperdeny tech to this effect?

[Kal Naar]

How does system ownership works?
Is it achieved only by making the first colony in a system?

[Data]

Yes and no. Once a player colonizes a colony than the system takes his colors but anyone can colonize other colonies in the same system. Unfortunatelly, afaik, it's not like in MOO2 where each would get a color in that system and you could end up with a rainbow of a system. But that at least would indicate various ownerships in that system.
I have a terrible lapse now and I don't know if the same applies with DW.

[Kal Naar]

ORIGINAL: Data

Yes and no. Once a player colonizes a colony than the system takes his colors but anyone can colonize other colonies in the same system. Unfortunatelly, afaik, it's not like in MOO2 where each would get a color in that system and you could end up with a rainbow of a system. But that at least would indicate various ownerships in that system.
I have a terrible lapse now and I don't know if the same applies with DW.

Thanks, that was what I thought.

I was thinking about a way to define the empire territory and also a way to reduce the overlapping empires effect.
And thought this could be achieved if the empires could claim ownership of systems without the need to colonize them.

This would mean that if a system had no current owner, an empire only had to build some assets (mines, starbases) or garrison a sufficient military presence (new mission type for fleets) in order to be able to
claiming it.

After successfully claiming a system, the normal diplomatic penalties would apply for other empires trying to enter or to build their own assets.

This would then open the possibility for a new diplomatic branch, where every empire could make their own claim about ownership of a disputed system.
The claim suitability would be defined by different metrics, like:
- distance to homeworld...
- amount of assets currently in the system,
- length of ownership,
- number of colonies in system

Denying a valid claim request would result in penalties with that nation, that would result in a casus belly, or in extreme cases an immediate declaration of war.

As each empire would make scouting and claiming closer systems their primary focus, the empires would tend to be more focused, since expansion could only be achieved by war or alliances.

As some have pointed earlier, this would open the possibility to some additional treaties:
- Free Trade Agreement
- Military Access
- Mutual Defense Pact
- Alliance (Allowing development in shared systems)

[tjhkkr]

ORIGINAL: Kal Naar
How does system ownership works?
Is it achieved only by making the first colony in a system?

Note entirely... my version of the Ancient Ones colonize planets... and I have purely accidently (and I am serious here guys, I did not intend for this to happen) colonized the same planet, and the Ancient ones already there joined my empire...
Also during war, one can have a colony go independent...

[tjhkkr]

Oh one other thing, there are regional capitals available letter in the game depending on your tech-level, and that seems to control things too...

Question for the others...
How many regional capitals are you allowed. So far, I have been only able to put one down.

[ehsumrell1]

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

Oh one other thing, there are regional capitals available letter in the game depending on your tech-level, and that seems to control things too...

Question for the others...
How many regional capitals are you allowed. So far, I have been only able to put one down.

I believe TJ that 3 is the number, contingent upon your tech level. There is a tech tree area
in a branch where you can research 'Regional Governance' that increases the number you can build.

[tjhkkr]

Thank you!

[Data]

Ed is spot on [;)]

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Igard

So if someone disagrees with you. You take it as a personal attack? And respond with several serious below the belt, personal attacks. Very volatile.

You know what. Never mind. Back on the green button for you.

Refer back to his post RE: ETA on expac? - 7/14/2011 8:55:28 AM - you'll see the personal attacks comments there.

I assume you have no trouble with the definitions of "troll" that he proposed which encompassed anyone who questioned the veracity his statements? I believe I have a better understanding of you now.