unit change suggestions

[krupp_88mm]

i think some small tweaks could be made to make the game more balanced, there seems to be a theme with at guns and aa guns, the higher caliber they are the more effective against infantry and armor... this seems logical until you realize large caliber at guns are slow firing and not maneuverable enough to fight off infantry, i think it would be great if lower caliber guns are better for anti inf than they currently are, and i feel at guns could use more at power, currently they are too weak to even stand up to tanks they could historically wipe the floor with, for instance 88mm aa or 88mm pak, try them out against historical easy kills they get slaughtered on offense or defense, id like to see a small hard target buff for them and slight nerf to soft targets, this could also encourage use of more inf and at guns

self propelled at guns, they are more effective against infantry than scouts? really that doesn't seem right, how can an elephant slow large target with one machine gun be more threatening to inf than small light fast sdkf with machine gun and 20mm autocannon, just seems to be a disconnect, the elephant already benefits from its insane armor making any inf attack outside close terrain complete suicide, do they really need to be so effective against infantry? same goes for large tanks, the larger the tank the more anti infantry ability it has, but in reality medium / light tanks would be more effective against infantry, i mean should the IS-2 really mow down infantry like no tomorrow when the bt-7 barely scratches them? their soft attack should be close to equal i think, is-2 already has initiative advantage and hard attack advantage and armor advantage it doesn't need to have every strength same for KT ect.

also i still maintain it is too cheap to get regular replacements for units especially in multiplayer, resulting in a kill unit or dont bother damaging dynamic to the game, because i can repair units for a song i dont care at all if they're damaged only if they are destroyed

and finally i have noticed the SU-122 is godly especially since it can switch to artillery these switching soviet artillery / anti tank guns with AA guns attached are the ultimate unit, you can compose an army of just SU-122 and it will smash, i literally smashed through some maps in MP in 5 turns completely wiping everything with them, doesn't feel right, i think they need to tone down the effectiveness of their switched modes.

TL/DR
- increase the soft damage of low caliber gun units / tanks, reduce soft damage of large caliber gun units / tanks
- boost at gun hard attack
- increase cost of regular replacements
- reduce effectiveness of soviet at gun / artillery switch modes and or increase price

and as a challenge to anyone who thinks i dont know what im talking about in game balance i will offer to beat you effortlessly in any scenario

[Razz1]

Replacement costs are fine. It's the prestige in the map you play that are a problem.
Towed AT's will be coming down in cost to make the usable.

[KerenskyLI]

Well of the balanced MP maps, UW and TFN both have the Su-122.  I'd like to see that and your other theories in action.
If you're talking about the campaign scenarios turned into MP maps, that's a different story though.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25977

[Kiith]

I don't think it's the cost that makes towed units unusable it's the game mechanics esp for the AA & AT units. Your always better off with a SP version as it can respond to full effect when it's not your turn.

So I'd favour a change that would either consume their attack for that turn but allow them to disembarking after moving, or just using movement points to disembark. Either way it would making them must more effective/usefull espeically in defensive fire situations.

[terje439]

You say the Elephant is good against Inf, this is only true if it holds some experience and fight against low grade inf. Try to start up the campaign that starts in Italy/Sicilly, and buy a fresh Elephant and attack US inf with it... 1-4/1-5 tends to be the estimated losses then, while the scout vehicles tends to get a 2-3.

"reduce soft damage of large caliber gun units / tanks"
What do you talk about when you say "large caliber guns", are we talking the named guns, or are we talking about the 15cm sFH 18 and up? Remember that the 15cm sFH 18 had a RoF of 4 rounds per minute, and to me artillery units in this game is not a single gun, but a battery of guns, they would indeed be dangerous to inf in the open.



Terje

[krupp_88mm]

What do you talk about when you say "large caliber guns", are we talking the named guns

im talking about all the guns on tanks / artillery that are large caliber, for insance isu's or king tigers or any tank with big guns, they are really much more effeective agaisnt inf

You say the Elephant is good against Inf, this is only true if it holds some experience and fight against low grade inf. Try to start up the campaign that starts in Italy/Sicilly, and buy a fresh Elephant and attack US inf with it... 1-4/1-5 tends to be the estimated losses then, while the scout vehicles tends to get a 2-3.

you are comparing apples to oranges.. ie a scout with exp vs a unit without exp? or am i worng about that, anyway im talking about infantry in open cover, i know the close defense value will change that but even an elephant attacking infantry in plains i dont think should be more effective than a scout

I'd like to see that and your other theories in action.

ok then lets do a game ill take my su122's and show you how to get er done, just tell me what map and settings

i really like the suggestion that at guns can dismount after moving with the MP maybe if it cost 2 mp, that would be great and make them so much more useful

[KerenskyLI]

I'm using modified maps and equipment files, so you'll have to host.

I'll agree to any of the 10 MP maps (TFN and UW as I said have plenty of opportunity to show off the 122), just create a few games and send me the passwords.

[krupp_88mm]

ok will do im busy with work now but as soon as i have time i will send it away

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

You say the Elephant is good against Inf, this is only true if it holds some experience and fight against low grade inf. Try to start up the campaign that starts in Italy/Sicilly, and buy a fresh Elephant and attack US inf with it... 1-4/1-5 tends to be the estimated losses then, while the scout vehicles tends to get a 2-3.

you are comparing apples to oranges.. ie a scout with exp vs a unit without exp? or am i worng about that, anyway im talking about infantry in open cover, i know the close defense value will change that but even an elephant attacking infantry in plains i dont think should be more effective than a scout

You misread me there. If you buy a new scout vehicle and a new Elephant and send them against the same inf, the scout vehicle WILL do better than the Elephant by far, atleast that has been my experience so far.
If you allow both the scout and the Elephant to gain the same ammount of experience (say 200) and attack the same inf, they will usually perform about equal.

Terje

[Bentusi]

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm

currently they are too weak to even stand up to tanks they could historically wipe the floor with

I see your point with the reinforcement costs in mp, although a totally green unit will be relatively helpless against experienced forces, which I think balances things out. I don`t agree totally regarding the 88 though, because if used right it doesn`t lose its effectiveness until about the Kursk fight.
Of course if you leave them out in the open and they`re scouted they will be blown away in notime, but if you place them in the second row behind the infantry you can move up and blast a tank to great effect the following round, with minimal casualties. This is for example by far the best way to deal with the early French and British armor and works well against the t34 and KV1.
I therefore think that the 88 is well represented in PC from a historical perspective, since this is how they were used by the Germans. Considering that they`re also extremely useful for clearing the skies early on I have the opposite view and if anything they`re OP.

[AceDuceTrey]

I have many unit change suggestions based on an "indexed" value we developed in the Army to declassify cannon performance specifications. This index I termed the RAP value (standing for Range, Accuracy, and Penetration) scaled the "battle sight zero" range for max charge, Kinetic Energy/solid shot rounds (in tens of meters); to accuracy (fixed 1st round hit probability); to armor penetration (in millimeters). The german 20mm AA autocannon scores a 45 PER ROUND; the 37mm autocannon AA a 70; the 88mm/L56 a 100; and the 128mm/L55 a 140. Strangely enough, PGII and PC seem to come very close to our RAP values when you divide the RAP value by 5. Bottom line here is I agree with you - the most dangerous anti-personnel weapons on the battlefield were the AA Autocannons. For example, I think they've got the PzII SA and HA values reversed!

[dashuaige25]

I'd like to see that and your other theories in action.



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[Trifler]

It would be nice if AA units with auto-cannons could fire on soft targets, either normally or as an alternate firing mode such as what the 88 has.