Leningrad: the open door defence

[Farfarer61]

I thought I had Leningrad protected, butr he went all the way east... Turn 7

[Farfarer61]

And Turn 17 ....

[Balou]

@ carnifex:

Just wonder. The hook is well known and any Ger move south of Lake Ilmen can at least be delayed at Pola river together with the Valdai Hills as a resort or flank. IMO it works very well against the AI (very slow response to the hook) but in many HvH AARs - from what I've seen - the door was shut in time by decent hum-Sov.
In any case, a strong ger force going east for Pola river is obviously trying to follow the path you suggest, so I wonder why it still works: it's one of the most popular ways to link up with the Finns. In July or August 41 the Sovs cannot really stop a strong push across Pola river, but I feel they can make it very costly in terms of commited ger units. Defenders there can substantially dig in if they start right away from t1, and Pz/Mot Divs alone probably will have to wait for the Inf Divs to catch up. Going south around Lake Ilmen very early might get them flat-footed, but how is supply managed?
BTW: when do you usally cross/try to cross Pola river in your HvHs?

[Hoooper]

Re the deep right hook: the Soviets have two decent rail lines to bring in reserves from the east, and there must be scope to reinforce from Leningrad if the lines there are kept short there. Also if the Volkhov is held, those units are available for an east-of-Ilman defence - they're operating on internal lines.

[Balou]

Not so sure about your internal lines. Once both of them are cut and ger mob units penetrate further north, all LGD units turn yellow. Still my question remains: why does the hook still work in HvHs ?

[Farfarer61]

ORIGINAL: Balou

Not so sure about your internal lines. Once both of them are cut and ger mob units penetrate further north, all LGD units turn yellow. Still my question remains: why does the hook still work in HvHs ?

Because if you defend against it the front door will open?

[Balou]

Not exactly what I was thinking of. From my understanding, the right hook around Ilmen allows to bypass heavily entrenched defenders just south of Moscow - in case you arrive there either too late or underpowered. I saw it first in AI games, and it worked fine in a couple of AARs vs the AI. But it worked because the AI isn't "thinking" of a hook and doesn't do a lot to prevent it. My point is: because it's known, and because it's possible to shut a very small door in time, I still wonder why it works in HvH. You don't need tons of units at Pola river, so I doubt the front door will open because you have to defend about 5 or 6 hexes between Ilmen and Valdai Hills.

[Hoooper]

Here's turn 12. As predicted, the west end of the Leningrad approaches is holding firm, the Krasnogvarddeysk line can't be breached by the existing Axis forces, and the deep right hook has been met with a cavalry-led counter attack from the Valdai hills (which has isolated them for the moment) and reserves from the interior have moved up to lay a carpet defence. The only blemish is that I've given up my hinge at Novgorod, but once the Axis' mobile forces have been committed east of Ilmen, that city is no longer essential to the Soviet system.

[Hoooper]

whoops x3

[Farfarer61]

Nice. What happened to me is that I had a too spaced out checkerboard-schwerpunkt and the gassed up Panzers found or made a hole. First the rail line was cut (could live with that), but then a unit snuck up to east mouth of the Svir and it was the beginning of the end. having said that Moscow held when I thought it would not, and the south did fine. Two Fronts were pocketed though.

[Balou]

If there's nothing that's coming up from behind, there goes the hook.

[Hoooper]

Well checkerboard defences are only there to absorb Germans movement points so that when they get to your real defence line they can't do anything spectacularly horrible, like launching multiple attacks and clearing a gap for reserve mobile forces. IMO they should be as weak as possible so that you can put your real effort into building a two-unit-deep line .. fortified .. behind a river barrier .. with counter attack forces .. and a couple of shock armies in the deep rear ... and the One Ring to Rule Them All in a Kremlin desk, just in case [;)].

[Peltonx]

You want to hold Leningrad simply do what TVD20 did and you hold it and Moscow! Of course the rest of the front will be a disaster heheh. But hes still in the game for sure, because of my Crimea distaster.

Follow the link: tm.asp?m=2851380

In my option as a Russain player why even bother wasting troops tring to hold it? Just rail out the very few production units there are don't waste so many troops on it.

As a Russian I would hold Moscow and put whatever esle you have into the south and try and save some production.

Thats a good plan Hoooper, but I have only not taken Leningrad 1 time out of 12 games. The rest of the time as long as Models in charge with 2500 guns the city will fall, unless the russian player puts 50% of his reserves into the front.

What turn did I get to Leningrad vs you? Hmm it was turn 4 [8D]

Picture is start of turn 5 before I moved.

[Peltonx]

Klydon posted before me. Hes got it 100% right.

Very good thread Hoooper.

Good to see you posting.

As the German player you can pound it out for Leningrad, using allot of guns the same way the Russians use them later in the war. If your attacking from 3 hexes you can take out 90 cv defending stacks. You have to plan ahhead but its do able.
50 cv from 2 is also doable. Kamil had a wall of high def units as you had an I pounded through them.

Your doing good in the game your posting, your forsing him to slide east. If you are able to keep him from cutting you off then his lines will be a disaster during the blizzard.



Pelton

[Hoooper]

I recall you taking Leningrad on turn 5. I started taking the game very seriously after that [X(]

[Hoooper]

Also, that stung me into coming up with a theory for The Defence of Leningrad. [&o]
I'm also playing a game with Baelfiin in which he has ignored Leningrad and used the AGN panzers to push south of the Valdai Hills and, I would guess, will shortly turn Moscow's northern flank. It's a pretty scary tactic, and I'm not sure if it can be stopped; I'm also not sure what penalties the Germans suffer if they don't take Leningrad in 41. Off the top of my head - and stating the bleeding obvious - I'd guess they have a thinner line across the front without the Finns, and the Red Army has a short cut to Riga and East Prussia if they hold at the Luga, but does that compensate for the loss of Moscow?

[carlkay58]

My experience as the human Soviet vs human Axis is that the hook can be very effective and is normally the way it happens. Why is it this way since I know he is going to try this? Various reasons:

1) If you are trying to defend Leningrad decently, you don't have a lot of troops left available to do everything (like hold Moscow, etc.) so something is going to be a weak link.

2) The Germans send one infantry army against Leningrad and the other around Lake Ilmen. If the panzer do an HQ buildup, then they can punch through wherever the weak link is exposed.

I don't really have an answer for you, but your tactic is well thought out and should be tried. But there is no single answer against a decent human Axis that is intending to capture Leningrad.

[Hoooper]

Well as I said, the plan is intended to make the best of a very bad situation. Here's the latest position in my game. The Leningrad MLR is solid, the open door has locked the Germans out of the Ladoga ports and the forces east of Lake Ilman are giving ground at a sufficiently slow rate to keep the rail link to Leningrad open until the winter. I hope.

[Jakerson]

You use very similar defence strategy than me. I always try to make 3 stack over 30cv points defence line where I dont want to lose ground and where I want to minimize losing of ground. This line is supported with 1 stack line of troops witch I use to rotate troops on main line so my main line troops can refit in back. I start to build my defences in the way that Germans cant deliberate attack my main line until it is fortified.

2 stacks 15-20 defence CV where I can lose ground but I want to consume German offensive as much as possible. I use 1 stack defence where losing ground dont cause immediate danger.

You should also get 3 stack worth of troops in all ports that supply leningrad and fortify them. I mean Kobona, Svir and Novaya Ladoga.

I always have fresh reserves to rotate troops on line and even do couter attack on Germans if they are very stubborn type and attack too much. If I do counter attack I always target it against mobile troops first as those are first troops I want to decimate.

Why you have rifle divs in Finnish contaiment line? You should only use forts, sec regiments and brigades there and send all rifle divs to fight Germans. Finns cannot attack until Leningrad is taken you only need weakest units to block them rifle divs there are waste of resources.

[Hermann]

ive lost Lenongrad once in my first game vs human the guy is a pro. Currently im at turn 10 in a game defending AGN vs 6 Panzer and 24 Infantry divisions with massed support and falling back 1 hex at a time. you made some big errors:
1. Trying to defend the Luga is bad.
2. Underemploying fortifed Zones.
3. Failure to prevent a breakthrough at Staraya Russa.
4. Concentrating defenses at Leningrad.
5. Failing to employ the Karelian army.
6. Lack of defensive depth along the known axis of attack.

First you need a straight line defense from Novgorod NW to the coast Place the best available units in Novgorod and let em Percolate. The straight line doesnt give him a weak spot to attack and avoids a coup de main. From Novgorod north you need to search the whole map from Rostov to Moscow and pull the very best units in your army to form the line. use light units to screen 1 hex forward of this line dont spare any cost the price of failure is too high. the 3 hexes to the south of the lake at starya russa are to be treated the same way and gradually extended southeast again in a straight diagonal line. Remember that if they crack that line Leningrads a goner fortified or no. so why waste effort on forts in there ? The key to the entire city is the port on lake ladoga. that falls the city, no matter how heavily defended falls. only a fool hits head on vs the novgorod line if you build it. As the germans close to Pskove move all the good stuff 1 hex forward stacked 3 high and move the light stuff back to work the forts. start a 3rd line with brigs and security regts. when the german finally closes up to the line pull yhe good stuff back to the novgorod line and screen the front with security regts from line 3. moving you light divs back to replace them. At this stage the enemy will realise theres going to be a fight and stop to feul and get inf. if he has any sense he will go away and find a better place to use his tanks, by now the starya russa line has been reached and the germans again should hesitate - start a second line behind it with cavalry ( reason is if he screens you and moves to the south you can annoy him and cav in reserve is helpful on defense stack three high for 6 hexes then 1 high southwards towards velikye. again with cav behind. Once he commits to bypassing you and screens your front you can start thinning your lines in the area correspondingly and send fit/ rested units to the Rzhev and Moscow areas. Use the fortified zones along the entire finnish border - thats crucial even n of leningrad. Remove the karelian army the instant it can move to reinforce your lines. bring up brigs as they become available to create leningrad defenses and to protect the port and set your bomber and transport units to night missons to suppply partisans. A well defended Leningrad serves as a manpower reservoir for the moscow battles.