Silent Victory

zed · Post by **zed** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:28 pm

Just reread some pertinent passsages of SILENT VICTORY by clay Blair over the holiday. No American Submarines were destroyed by enemy action in all of 1942. Argonaut, destroyed in early 1943, was the first one to be sunk by a IJN destroyer off the coast of New Ireland. 3 others followed in rapid succession. Several S-boats crashed on reefs or otherwise proved unseaworthy and sank in 1942.

American sub commanders however, never kept their subs in enemy ports once an attack was made.

entemedor · Post by **entemedor** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 4:42 am

I don't have SILENT VICTORY, but other sources have at least two US subs sunk by IJN ships during 1942:

SHARK (SS-174) by DD AMATSUKAZE, 11 Feb 1942
PERCH (SS-176) by DDs AMATSUKAZE (again!) and HATSUKAZE, 3rd March 1942

A possible third victim is GRUNION (SS-216), missing July 1942, some sources have it sunk by IJN sub I-25.

Cheers,

Entemedor

GunRange · Post by **GunRange** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 5:57 am

I doubt that any skipper in RL had been stupid enough to park his boat in Truk harbour entrance along with 5 other S-boats...

Point Luck · Post by **Point Luck** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:37 am

U.S. Navy Wartime Submarine Losses
52 U.S. submarines were lost to all causes during World War II. The vast majority of these boats were lost in combat with the Japanese navy. The combat histories and circumstances of loss are well documented in many places on the internet. This summary is included here for the informational purposes
Name Date of Loss Cause of Loss
Sealion (SS-195) 10 December, 1941 Japanese aircraft
S-36 (SS-141) 20 December, 1941 Grounding
S-26 (SS-131) 24 January, 1942 Collision with U.S. surface craft (PC-460)
Shark (SS-174) February, 1942 Japanese surface craft
Perch (SS-176) 3 March, 1942 Japanese surface craft
S-27 (SS-132) 19 June, 1942 Grounding
Grunion (SS-216) August, 1942 Unknown
S-39 (SS-144) 13 August, 1942 Grounding
Argonaut (SS-166) 10 January, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Amberjack (SS-219) 16 February, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Grampus (SS-207) 5 March, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Triton (SS-201) 15 March, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Pickerel (SS-177) 3 April, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Grenadier (SS-210) 22 April, 1943 Aircraft
Runner (SS-275) June / July, 1943 Unknown, but probably mine
R-12 (SS-89) 12 June, 1943 Flooded during training
Pompano (SS-181) August / September, 1943 Unknown
Grayling (SS-209) August / September, 1943 Unknown
Cisco (SS-290) Probably 28 September, 1943 Japanese aircraft and surface craft
S-44 (SS-155) 7 October, 1943 Japanese destroyer - surface action
Wahoo (SS-238) 11 October, 1943 Japanese aircraft
Dorado (SS-248) October, 1943 German Mine
Corvina (SS-226) 16 November, 1943 Japanese submarine
Sculpin (SS-191) 19 November, 1943 Japanese surface craft
Capelin (SS-289) November / December, 1943 Unknown
Scorpion (SS-278) January / February, 1944 Probable mine
Grayback (SS-208) 26 February, 1944 Japanese aircraft and surface craft
Trout (SS-202) March, 1944 Unknown
Tullibee (SS-284) 26 March, 1944 Own Torpedo
Gudgeon (SS-211) April / May, 1944 Unknown, possible aircraft
Herring (SS-233) 1 June, 1944 Japanese shore battery
Golet (SS-361) 14 June, 1944 Japanese surface craft
S-28 (SS-133) 4 July, 1944 Foundered during training
Robalo (SS-273) 26 July, 1944 Japanese mine
Flier (SS-250) 13 August, 1944 Japanese mine
Harder (SS-257) 24 August, 1944 Japanese surface craft
Seawolf (SS-197) 3 October, 1944 U.S. Surface Craft
Escolar (SS-294) October / November, 1944 Probable mine
Darter (SS-227) 24 October, 1944 Grounding
Shark (SS-314) 24 October, 1944 Japanese surface craft
Tang (SS-306) 24 October, 1944 Own Torpedo
Albacore (SS-218) 7 November, 1944 Japanese mine
Growler (SS-215) 8 November, 1944 Unknown
Scamp (SS-277) 13/16 November,1944 Japanese surface craft
Swordfish (SS-193) 12 January, 1945 Japanese surface craft
Barbel (SS-316) 4 February, 1945 Japanese aircraft
Kete (SS-369) 20-31 March, 1945 Unknown, possible Japanese submarine
Trigger (SS-237) 28 March, 1945 Japanese aircraft and surface craft
Snook (SS-279) 8-20 April, 1945 Unknown
Lagarto (SS-371) 4 May, 1945 Japanese minelayer Hatsutaka
Bonefish (SS-223) 18 June, 1945 Japanese surface craft
Bullhead (SS-332) 6 August, 1945 Japanese aircraft

BigJoe417 · Post by **BigJoe417** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:42 am

All still on patrol. God Bless them!

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:50 am

Wow..Point Luck..that is sobering. Think of all those men!

Look at the first 8 losses, half were due to grounding or collison with friendly vessels.

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:53 am

I think it takes major courage just to be willing to get IN
one of those coastal subs.

I can not imagine a more horrible death. Maybe being tossed into
molten lava comes close.

Point Luck · Post by **Point Luck** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 7:54 am

Yes I guess it takes alot to drive a pig boat.
Looks like IJN did have pretty good ASW afterall maybe Matrix might want to rethink the ASW capabilities by IJN.
I'm getting killed in my PBEM game by US subs and can't even slow them down

Mynok · Post by **Mynok** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:48 pm

Originally posted by Point Luck
Yes I guess it takes alot to drive a pig boat.
Looks like IJN did have pretty good ASW afterall maybe Matrix might want to rethink the ASW capabilities by IJN.
I'm getting killed in my PBEM game by US subs and can't even slow them down

Haven't done any research, per se, but wasn't the real issue the Japanese aversion to escort duty for transports? Am I correct in recalling that they didn't escort their transports much until later in the war?

It is apparent that the certainly did and could use ASW.

GunRange · Post by **GunRange** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:04 pm

US Silent Service; Force less than 2% of navy personel credited 55% of Japan losses at sea. 1300 ships sunk, 180 of those (about 725'000 tons) in 1942.

22% of of US submariners failed to return. Highest casualty rate of any service in US.

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:12 pm

That is very impressive until you examine the statistics for mines.
Mines were dropped by B-17, B-24, B-29 AND PBY!!!

That is why I am so surprised we cant do that in the game.
They started doing that in 3/43.

My point is that mines win hands down at sinking ships.

GunRange · Post by **GunRange** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:21 pm

Mines were used extecively on later half of war ('44-'45), but as big ships were rare at this times, most ships sunk by them were coastal.

Tonnage for subs was higher.

*edit:removed word 'much', after checking the figures. But still higher.*

zed · Post by **zed** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:48 pm

The ships that grounded their crews were rescured. Blair does not list any Submarines as sank by enemy action in 1942. He has an appendix listing submarine losses. I think it strange he does not list PERCH, SHARK AND SEALION. The ones listed as unknown were lost at sea, but IJN wartime records do not show them as being sunk by Japanese ships. After the war USN tried to determine if enemy records could indicate what happened to them. I am astounded actually that so few were lost.

Ise dogged 26 american subs on its way from Singapore to Japan. That has got to be the all time record. Combat ships making 25+ knots were hard for subs to sink.

Chiteng · Post by **Chiteng** » Sat Dec 28, 2002 11:57 pm

What is even more amazing is the comment of the Ise captain.
He said that the USN planes were not very accurate, and that
the only reason they hit anything is because there were so many.
He also said that the Ise was 'more manuverable'???? than
the CVs.

The Ise was a WWI Battleship obselete even by WWI standards.
That is why I am so surprised at his comment.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:04 am

Hi, Also I think the level of subs deployed in UV is much higher then in practice. Most players send all their subs out as fast as they get them. Actual practice was to only have about 1/3 of on hand subs deployed at any one time. This left 1/3 refitting and 1/3 on way to/from patrols.

(If you have 12 subs. 4 would be on patrol, 4 would be refitting, and 4 would be in route to or from patrol stations)
But in UV 12 subs are sitting on enemy base.

smithmr · Post by **smithmr** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 2:32 am

The poor guys in the Seawolf are the real unlucky ones. Get sunk by one of your own destroyers. That was one destroyer captain who should have been hung from the flag mast.

entemedor · Post by **entemedor** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 4:38 am

In fact, the commander of that destroyer escort (USS ROWELL) was subject to censure by the Board of Enquiry, but no disciplinary action was taken, because the Board was only too aware that there had been serious 'errors of judgment' at several levels.
SEAWOLF arrived in the Morotai area one day behind schedule, but Commander Seventh Fleet saw no reason to relay this information to the air/sea forces in the spot. By sheer bad luck, IJN sub RO-41 torpedoed USS SHELTON just a few miles from the SEAWOLF position, and the counter-attack caught SEAWOLF instead of the enemy sub. The TBM pilot from carrier MIDWAY which first attacked the contact had not even been informed that he was in a submarine 'safety lane' (friendly subs possibly operating in the area, no ASW attacks authorised). The commander of the Hunter-Killer task force and all his ship commanders (including ROWELL's) did knew they were in a submarine safety lane, yet they disregarding all security provisions governing such a lane.
Even worse, between the successive 'hedhehog' attacks which eventually destroyed SEAWOLF, ROWELL heard the submarine sending signals by sound gear (her desperate efforts to establish herself as a friendly unit), but no measures were taken.

However, given the complexity of naval operations in the Pacific, it's even surprising that SEAWOLF was the only US sub victim of 'friendly fire'.
BTW, DORADO (SS-248) was also probably destroyed by US aircraft in the Caribbean.

The only other similar incident which I know of is the sinking of salvage ship USS EXTRACTOR (ARS-15) by US submarine GUARDFISH on 24th January 1945.

Entemedor

smithmr · Post by **smithmr** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 10:35 am

That's why I thought the destroyer Captain should have been hung, I knew about the Seawolf being in the "Don't attack any sub zone" when it was sunk, Didn't know it was a whole hunter-killer group that was involved. Will have to modiy my statement, They should have hung all the Captains in the H/K group. They all knew they were in the safe zone for subs and they were under orders not to attack any subs in that zone. No excuse for them. Mark

CapAndGown · Post by **CapAndGown** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:57 pm

There are no friendly subs. There are subs made by us, and subs made by them. But none of them are friendly.

Hard Sarge · Post by **Hard Sarge** » Sun Dec 29, 2002 8:41 pm

Hi Smithmr
you are missing the point, there was a bad sub in the good sub zone, the bad sub was shooting, when the action was over, the good sub was the one sunk

what would the out come of been if the bad sub had sank 5 or 6 ships, and when they asked the H/K group what they were doing, they turned around and said they couldn't attack, as there may of been a good sub in the area

damned if you do and damned if you don't

there was a GB DD commander who tracked a GE sub under the crewmen of a just sunken ship, he sailed in and dropped DC's on top of it, they don't know if the sub was there or not, but the crewmen, didn't make it

HARD_Sarge

Silent Victory

Silent Victory

Sub losses in 1942

Looks Like more than Two

re: that is horrible

Jap ASW

re: True but yet...

re: The Ise

Sub patrols then and now (UV)

Seawolf

Loss of SEAWOLF

Seawolf