A Different Strategy?

[usersatch]

I am finishing up a book on the combat history of the 2nd SS Panzer. I get the (biased) impression that their defensive role was more devastating to the russians than their offensive role, especially in light of lousy russian corps leadership and the role of the SS, Wehrmacht, and AT guns around Moscow and Kharkov.

Has any Axis player tried a "defensive" Barbarossa, where the focus is on capitulation/destruction of soviet units in 1941 (instead of capturing land) and a strong defensive front in early 1942 (perhaps fortifying around Kiev/Smolensk) to bleed the russians dry in 1942/1943?

Is it even possible to bleed the russians "dry"?

[HCDawson]

The 1:1+1 advantage of the Soviets really would limit a pure bleed white defense, even along the main river lines. Adjustments to how supplies are handled would also likely be required for a backhand blow style tactic to play out -- as it stands right now, any supply is basically full combat supply.

[stone10]

The russians get 150k manpowers each turn, so it is impossible to dry russians vs. human player.

[karonagames]

I think there is some merit in the advance as far as you can in 1941 and not making an all all out attack in 1942, but rather building up reserves of manpower and equipment that can absorb the Soviet steam roller in 1943/44/45.

The downside is that you will not be Applying "AP pressure" on the SU in 1942, forcing them to spend APs on replacing dead units, and allowing them to build their rifle corps/artillery/mechanised Juggernaut unmolested.

It is inevitable that attrition will get the axis to their shatter point (2.3m OOB/16k rifle squads)- if you can prevent this from happening until about February 1945 and your front is still holding at the original start line, then you may get a decent draw out of the game, which most axis players would consider a "win".

[herwin]

By 1944, the Red Army was having manpower problems.

[Peltonx]

I have tried the defensive "tragedy" an it is a disaster, because of the unhistorical 1v1=2v1 rule. I have finished 9 campiagns an have 4 on going.

As the German player you must destory at least 100 armerment pts and 3 million men by Jan 1942 and keep your loses below 1.5 million by March 1942.

Then during the summer of 42 you must destory "capture" at least 100 units.

This will give you the upper hand and the Red army can't recover. Right now their is really zero middle ground, by July 42 the out come is disided. If the German player is unable to pocket allot of Russian units and get better then 2.6 to 1 ratio then its over. Between turn 70 and 90 the Russian player can easly grind the German army down.

As the German player you must get atleast a 2.6 to 1 ratio in manpower to control the Red Machine from grinding you down. This can only be done if you are caturing evemy units.

As of right now unless you have an amazing 41 summer the Red player should be in Berlin by early 44.

The game is wieghted heavly in the Russian favor and the VP conditions are a joke to say the least. As long as the Russian player simply trains out Arm PTS and runs from the Germans during 41 they win. The German player can capture Leningrad/Moscow/Tula to Rostov and still get steam rolled in early 44. Check out the Q-ball vs Tarhunnas AAR as a good example.

If I was you I would not waste any time starting a game until after the 1.05 patch.

Pelton

[Jakerson]

ORIGINAL: herwin

By 1944, the Red Army was having manpower problems.

This is already simulated in game start years building up of Red army is limited by armament points but as years go on Soviet side gets less menpower eatch year. In the end there will be arms to wield all menpower even for Soviets.

Soviet allways get more men than Germany but that is historical.

If German can hang on decently sized army until 45 Soviet have a lot of problems from logistics as lend lease vehicles drop from 6000 per turn to 1000 per turn this is large drop as Soviet own production is only about 1500 vehicles per turn.

Soviet have to be able to collapse German army before that.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I have tried the defensive "tragedy" an it is a disaster, because of the unhistorical 1v1=2v1 rule. I have finished 9 campiagns an have 4 on going.

As the German player you must destory at least 100 armerment pts and 3 million men by Jan 1942 and keep your loses below 1.5 million by March 1942.

Then during the summer of 42 you must destory "capture" at least 100 units.

This will give you the upper hand and the Red army can't recover. Right now their is really zero middle ground, by July 42 the out come is disided. If the German player is unable to pocket allot of Russian units and get better then 2.6 to 1 ratio then its over. Between turn 70 and 90 the Russian player can easly grind the German army down.

As the German player you must get atleast a 2.6 to 1 ratio in manpower to control the Red Machine from grinding you down. This can only be done if you are caturing evemy units.

As of right now unless you have an amazing 41 summer the Red player should be in Berlin by early 44.

The game is wieghted heavly in the Russian favor and the VP conditions are a joke to say the least. As long as the Russian player simply trains out Arm PTS and runs from the Germans during 41 they win. The German player can capture Leningrad/Moscow/Tula to Rostov and still get steam rolled in early 44. Check out the Q-ball vs Tarhunnas AAR as a good example.

If I was you I would not waste any time starting a game until after the 1.05 patch.

Pelton

It's lucky you're in charge of PR and Marketing for WitE Pelton....don't know what we'd do without you bud [;)]

[Peltonx]

It is what it is at this point.

There are allot of games(AAR's) 40 or 50 atleast that show the out come of the game with the present rule set. So its not like its a big secret.

I can tell the guy the truth or fill him full of bull.

I am still playing games, there is allot to learn.

If your playing to learn the mechanics of the game - great
If your playing an posting data on the AAR to help the dev team - great
If your playing the end game for wins and loses then not so great.

The game is basicly in public beta its not a finished product by any means.

Which by the way is nothing new for any game the last 20 yrs.

It takes at least a yr to get a game close to "done" after it goes gold.

The AI for this game is light yrs better then anything esle out there so one can play the computer, while the dev crew irons out the player vs player issues.

Pelton

[Q-Ball]

I've said before, it took 6 years to get another Gary Grigsby game, WITP-AE, "Right".

This engine is not as complex as that one, but a year or so should be the minimum expectation, IMO. It's in better shape at this stage than WITP was...

[usersatch]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I have tried the defensive "tragedy" an it is a disaster, because of the unhistorical 1v1=2v1 rule. I have finished 9 campiagns an have 4 on going.

As the German player you must destory at least 100 armerment pts and 3 million men by Jan 1942 and keep your loses below 1.5 million by March 1942.

Then during the summer of 42 you must destory "capture" at least 100 units.

This will give you the upper hand and the Red army can't recover. Right now their is really zero middle ground, by July 42 the out come is disided. If the German player is unable to pocket allot of Russian units and get better then 2.6 to 1 ratio then its over. Between turn 70 and 90 the Russian player can easly grind the German army down.

As the German player you must get atleast a 2.6 to 1 ratio in manpower to control the Red Machine from grinding you down. This can only be done if you are caturing evemy units.

As of right now unless you have an amazing 41 summer the Red player should be in Berlin by early 44.

The game is wieghted heavly in the Russian favor and the VP conditions are a joke to say the least. As long as the Russian player simply trains out Arm PTS and runs from the Germans during 41 they win. The German player can capture Leningrad/Moscow/Tula to Rostov and still get steam rolled in early 44. Check out the Q-ball vs Tarhunnas AAR as a good example.

If I was you I would not waste any time starting a game until after the 1.05 patch.

Pelton

It's lucky you're in charge of PR and Marketing for WitE Pelton....don't know what we'd do without you bud [;)]

LOL...that's what I was thinking. I appreciate honesty, but damn! Seriously, though, I appreciate the honest assessment. Q-ball is right, I was with WitP from the beginning, so I can certainly appreciate the advance between the "beta" version vs. the "polished" version of WitP AE.

Call me a revisionist, but I'm convinced that russia should have lost the war, except for 1) a-hole Hitler's control freak status, 2) the same idiot's obsession with Stalingrad/6th Army, and 3) OKW's foolish Citadel venture (a massive soviet bombardment 30 minutes before the operation...DUH!!!). I'd love to prove it...somehow...without the use of victory points.

[mmarquo]

"There are allot of games(AAR's) 40 or 50 atleast that show the out come of the game with the present rule set. So its not like its a big secret"

Where are the 10 AARs which have played the game through to the bitter end? Show me one AAR where the Hammer and Sickle is flying over the Reichstag; until then one coull easliy surmise that the game is not winnable as the Soviet, given the time constraints of the game.

Think about this: it took about 2 years (1941 - 1943) to end up at Kursk, and then 2 about years (1943 - 1945) to get to Berlin. What is wrong with a game which actually allows this to happen?

Marquo

[Farfarer61]

If it sucks so bad, why is it so much fun to play? Do I need an intervention?

[Bearcat2]

After reading, Manstein by Mungo Melvin; I don't see how Russia could lose. What surprised me was the number of Russian counterattacks in the first 2 weeks and the lack of stategic focus by the German high command which started to have problems 1 week into the advance. It is hard to believe that the Germans didn't have clear operational objectives 1 week into the campaign for their armies. I was also surprised at the fact they had to withdraw a panzer division to deal with partisans in JULY.

[Peltonx]

The game is winable on VP pts by the German.

A few of us have had it withen reach, but the Red player quit.

The only reason it can happen, is because the German player is a vertern an the Red player is new.

So to your point, dam straight the Germans can win np, but only if the Russian player doesn't have a chear understanding of the game mechanics and the German player does. The Russian player makes mistakes and the German player make none.

Now all things being equal the game is in favor of the russian side at this time.

If you sit around during 42 the red army grows by 110,000+ a week and the German army grows by 30,000. Which is a losing ratio.

The only way for the German to win at this time is to destory allot of industry during 41, then destory allot of Russians during 42 then hang on for a draw if your lucky vs an equal player.

Pelton

[Michael T]

Don't let yourself become influenced by the rants of one disenchanted player. WITE is a fun game and very winable for the Axis if your good enough. IMO it is maybe slightly in favour of the Soviets if they survive 41.

[Farfarer61]

I think a Sov player, in their player "heart of hearts", is OK with the loss of Leningrad, even Moscow and the Donbas if the industry was saved, as this means it is a 'game' after the blizzard. Your opponent will likely stick around, and not march to the firing squad of of Valkyrie Force in Berlin. Even a strong Sov in 42 has to be careful as warfare outside the fort belts is not their strong suits. The grand sweep by your CV4 Guards Tank Corps has nowhere near to isolated survivability of a morale 99 SS Mot Div.

[Reedster]

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The only way for the German to win at this time is to destory allot of industry during 41, then destory allot of Russians during 42 then hang on for a draw if your lucky vs an equal player.

Assuming the 'equal' Russian player plays along [:D]

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Don't let yourself become influenced by the rants of one disenchanted player. WITE is a fun game and very winable for the Axis if your good enough. IMO it is maybe slightly in favour of the Soviets if they survive 41.

I assume you refer to Pelton as the "disenchanted player".

Thing is, that while some don't like how harsh he is, the fact is he has a lot of experience as the Germans and is spot on in a lot of his comments.

If the Russians survive the initial onslaught while getting most of their industry out in 1941, in most cases, they should be able to kick the crap out of the Germans during the winter (as they should and if the Germans are silly enough to try to hold everything) and as long as they don't do anything stupid during 1942 like get half their army wiped out, then they are going to start to bang on the Germans in earnest. I have seen too many AARs look like 1943 rather than 1942 for the Germans and it just accelerates from there.

The announced changes for 1.05 look terrific and would seem to indicate a more balanced and better game will be around the corner, but right now I think the cards are stacked a bit more heavily against the Germans than they should likely be. (Disclaimer, I am still not a "fanboy" of either side and won't be. I play both sides and yes, the Germans should have a tough go if they expect to get an outright victory).

[Reedster]

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I play both sides and yes, the Germans should have a tough go if they expect to get an outright victory).

IMHO it's not so much an outright German victory per se, I believe it should indeed be tough for the Axis to win by KO, but in my observation/experience it's that mid-late 1942 feels more like historical 1943 for the Axis and 1943 feels like... well, 1944 [;)]