The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[princep01]

Ahhhh, there you are, Reek.Stop cowering in that dark corner and lend an ear (while you still have them).

Of late, many pearls of wisdom have been rained upon you by the griseled veterans of mortal combat in the Pacific. And, indeed several of these missives have been to the point and accurate in my estimation. Nonetheless, not all agree, so it is encumbent upon you to develop your plan and execute it in your own eloquent style. Shall it be the rapier, the long sword or the brutal cutlass that you adopt in future games? Much will be determined by what you come away with from this game. The important thing is to try some of these suggestions and observe the results by your own hand. There you will find the golden fleece of wisdom in applicating the game mechanics and learning the best ways to employ your own dogs of war.

In all truth, Reek, you will probably not prevail in this game. Never fear. I shall allow you another chance with a new foe. The loss of China and India and all their industrial and mineral wealth is probably too much to overcome. However, you have shown a game spirit (something I'd like to see more of around here, you know). Keep up the pressure and learn with each passing turn new tricks for future use.

One last note. I would use those ace filled squadrons only on CAP over friendly bases until Rader halts the mass raids and sweeps. First, they will tend to wreck a lot of enemy planes and, if shot down, there is a good chance they will survive to fly yet again.

[dekwik]

You're doing a great job GJ. Just the advice you're getting alone is enough to make a head spin. But it doesn't stop me from adding to it [:)]

Diego Garcia is a really crucial base. Losing that base alone might be enough to get Rader to fall back from India, at least the western portions. OK you can argue you want him deployed too far forward but that's a bit weak. you want the HI out of his hands too.

Diego is one of the few bases where you can say Japan would be thrilled to keep it for ever. There's always the knowledge for Japan that troops can be bypassed and left to rot, so keeping most bases is (eventually) a mixed blessing, as we see in the Solomons. But Diego is forever astride your supply lines. It's a base you can't bypass so you may as well resign yourself to the losses implicit in taking it. The more force you deploy in taking it the less you will lose.

On the positve side, it's one of the few places where Japan *might* be tempted to engage your CVs with the KB outside massive LBA cover. The time when Rader would do that anywhere else passed 6 months ago. In another 12 months, Rader will be avoiding your CVs the plague even with LBA cover because Japan benefits later from the "fleet in being" threat just as much as the allies do early in the war. Maybe you keep playing down DG as another op-sec exercise " [;)]

[Ron Saueracker]

Ohhh, I like the quality of the noobs we are getting. GJ, been reading this for a few days and am both impressed by the speed with which you've assimilated the complexities of this puppy and by your perseverence. Bravo.

[SBD]

ORIGINAL: dekwik

You're doing a great job GJ. Just the advice you're getting alone is enough to make a head spin. But it doesn't stop me from adding to it [:)]

Diego Garcia is a really crucial base. Losing that base alone might be enough to get Rader to fall back from India, at least the western portions. OK you can argue you want him deployed too far forward but that's a bit weak. you want the HI out of his hands too.

Diego is one of the few bases where you can say Japan would be thrilled to keep it for ever. There's always the knowledge for Japan that troops can be bypassed and left to rot, so keeping most bases is (eventually) a mixed blessing, as we see in the Solomons. But Diego is forever astride your supply lines. It's a base you can't bypass so you may as well resign yourself to the losses implicit in taking it. The more force you deploy in taking it the less you will lose.

On the positve side, it's one of the few places where Japan *might* be tempted to engage your CVs with the KB outside massive LBA cover. The time when Rader would do that anywhere else passed 6 months ago. In another 12 months, Rader will be avoiding your CVs the plague even with LBA cover because Japan benefits later from the "fleet in being" threat just as much as the allies do early in the war. Maybe you keep playing down DG as another op-sec exercise " [;)]

Agree that this would be a great target when you get enough landing craft. An additional plus is that it's located by a "wormhole" that you could suddenly pop out of. From here you could threaten Ceylon, Port Blair, etc. I think that in general a flanking maneuver would force Rader to tie up a lot more of his troops than the stack moving down the road from Karachi.

[obvert]

Obviously i don't have any perfect clue about his dispositions in SRA/DEI...but the intel tells me, for ex, that he has the 61st Division at Coconut Island, 2 divisions at Timor, along with 1 Eng Regiment and 1 Air HQ...at Menado he has massed 2 divisions, 1 Army HQ and several artillery units...this just to give you an idea of what he's able to mass...the conquest of China had opened a can of worms... probably, by now, the less defended is SUmatra...but again, to get there, i'd need Diego...and Diego is guarded by 30,000 men, an Army HQ, and Air HQ and a guard regiment for sure...if i had to bet i'd say that at least another regiment is based there... can i take it? yes, for sure... but it will take time...and by the time i get rid of Diego he could have redeployed his KBs and his LBAs to the SRA/DEI...waiting for me...

Diego Garcia is a fantastic base for searching the Indian Ocean and trying to hit shipping moving through the area. It has very little to do with attacking the SRA. What is the generally considered max striking distance for Netties? Abut 12 hexes. More than this and mostly they won't fly.

Moving from either Cape Town or Perth, it shouldn't be too hard to avoid most mutually supporting air until the invasion is at the target. Let Diego rot. It can't move. Leave it alone where it is and move in behind it. Hit Sabang and Great Nicobar, maybe.

I know there is a lot of stuff being thrown around, and I'm a complete believer that you as the player have to play your own game, but Diego is not a reason not to invade the SRA, although there may be plenty of other good reasons if you don't have the materials to do it. The thing is as the Allies, you always have materials to throw away. You never have more time.

The map below has about 12 hex circles for his LBA cover in the SRA area.

[GreyJoy]

Guys,

I've studied the map for 2 hours this morning... an invasion of Sumatra passing by the way Obvert just pointed out seems doable, provided that i bring with my all my CV/CVL/CVE fleet.
The point, imho, is that once the surprise is broken (let's say at least 4 days before the landings) i need to hurry up and take at least 3 mutual supporting bases...
Ok, let's say i do it cause those 3 bases on the western coast of Sumatra are lightly defended (consider that, a part from the Intel, i won't have any clue about what he has there...)
...so i've taken those three bases...

...Rader will be moving lots of stuff to the theatre...but then? My communication lines will be non-existent...i'll have to rely only on what i brought there... If i was Rader i wouldn't bother much...i'll simply flood the area with Nells/Betties/Frances and some 1000 LBA fighters (in one week he can easily transfer those numbers (in India he has 400 fighters for example)...he could simply halt my advance and keep my comm lines shut (the KB will have an easy job doing that under the LBA umbrella...)

I need to find a place closer to my communication lines so that i'm able to support my landings with a flow of supplies, fuel, troops and planes... I cannot simply grab a place in the middle of hundreds of japanese bases...even if the place is lightly held...

I'm seriously thinking about the area around Bali... It seems (SEEMS) that few of these bases have been built and garrisoned... they are pretty close to my newest bases of Exmouth, Port Hedland and Derby...and, if taken, fortified and well supplied for the first month, bypass Rader's defensive system around Timor and southern DEI, threatening at the same time the whole Java and southern Borneo...

Studying, thinking, planning....


Dec 7, 8 1943

2 years of war... it was a long way...

The news of today is that Rader has moved a whole Army to create a front between Salamua and Buna...in the middle of the jungle...30,000 men are spotted...another unit is marching on my left flank... our 4Es, recently moved to PM, bombed the hell out of those bastards...but the terrain favours the defenders here and, despite my crews are really experienced and there was no opposition, the damage created is minimal...
Anyway, tomorrow my Paras will conquer Buna, where only a single unit is left. Right after that my 3 Divisions of the I and II Aus Corp will enter the town, preceding the tank units and the engeeneers... more units are moving to cover my left flank...just in case.

With the conquest of Buna, PM won't be alone anymore...we could start creating a system of mutual supporting bases (with PM AF 9!) that should be able to break his defences in NG...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Division, at 99,128 , near Buna

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes


Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 84
B-24J Liberator x 54
P-40N5 Warhawk x 6


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
384 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 28 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)


Also attacking Maizuru 2nd SNLF ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking 78th Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking Maizuru 2nd SNLF ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking Maizuru 2nd SNLF ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking 78th Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking Maizuru 2nd SNLF ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 5th Garrison Unit , at 99,128 , near Buna

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes


Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IV x 7
B-24D1 Liberator x 101
B-24J Liberator x 54


Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
495 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Also attacking Maizuru 2nd SNLF ...
Also attacking 5th Division ...
Also attacking 23rd Nav Gd Unit ...
Also attacking 17th Army ...
Also attacking 5th Garrison Unit ...
Also attacking 78th Infantry Regiment ...




Rader is btw clearly planning another air offensive...i'd say PM probably...he has moved back all of his fighters from NG and they are now massing at Rabaul...i'd say resting and refilling their ranks...getting ready for another offensive...i have moved 300 fighters at PM...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: princep01

Ahhhh, there you are, Reek.Stop cowering in that dark corner and lend an ear (while you still have them).

Of late, many pearls of wisdom have been rained upon you by the griseled veterans of mortal combat in the Pacific. And, indeed several of these missives have been to the point and accurate in my estimation. Nonetheless, not all agree, so it is encumbent upon you to develop your plan and execute it in your own eloquent style. Shall it be the rapier, the long sword or the brutal cutlass that you adopt in future games? Much will be determined by what you come away with from this game. The important thing is to try some of these suggestions and observe the results by your own hand. There you will find the golden fleece of wisdom in applicating the game mechanics and learning the best ways to employ your own dogs of war.

In all truth, Reek, you will probably not prevail in this game. Never fear. I shall allow you another chance with a new foe. The loss of China and India and all their industrial and mineral wealth is probably too much to overcome. However, you have shown a game spirit (something I'd like to see more of around here, you know). Keep up the pressure and learn with each passing turn new tricks for future use.

One last note. I would use those ace filled squadrons only on CAP over friendly bases until Rader halts the mass raids and sweeps. First, they will tend to wreck a lot of enemy planes and, if shot down, there is a good chance they will survive to fly yet again.

thanks my Lord. much appreciated!

About my Top Guns...yes, i'm trying to save them...those brit aces are really unvaluable!...and when flying on CAP they are deadly...and with all that experience it's really hard to kill them!!!

i think this game has been lost in China...right at the beginning...without the conquest of China Rader would have never been able to move all those units to India...but hey, shit happens in war and i had so much fun with this match that i really don't care if i lose or i win!

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We need to be very careful about putting pressure on GJ here. Any player - even moreso a fairly new one - is going to get a bit of the "willies" when told he is way behind schedule, especially when the opinions are coming from players of the quality who are posting here. Unless he's some kind of prodigy, he's gonig to experience that knot in the stomach that signals, "Hey, the experts are telling me I'm behind. I better get moving and fast!"

Players who act under pressure are going to make mistakes. Multiply that exponentially for relatively new players.

Everybody will agree that GJ has come very far since he started this game. His growth as a player will continue. I believe he has a good grasp on the situation and will be best served moving at his own pace. I also beleive the Allies are growing so strong that GJ, by the judicious use of his forces (especially carriers and fast BBs) will grow more certain of himself, and act increasingly boldly, as he progresses into 1944.

I would agree with the others if rader wasn't throwing ground units, ships, and aircraft into the campaign on a massive scale. GJ is doing an admirable job of defeating rader. I have said many times before the 1943 (Scenario One) and 1944 (Scenario Two) is the Year of Attrition in AE. As '43 has gone on, GJ has exerted more and more pressure, and rader has responded by pushing back; and thus GJ is making good progress while learning much more about how to do things in AE.

Therefore, I urge GJ not to get antsy in reaction to posts here by excellent players. Their advice would hold much more water for an experience player, not one who is now cutting his teeth on the complexities of offensive warfare.

Perhaps this discussion would be better served in the main forum. But that would give rader valuable insights.

It's not for me to opine whether GJ is better than he used to be; opinions on that are clear in this AAR. The more interesting issues, for me, deal with Nemo's points vis a vis the national objectives a situation such as GJ's presents in a Scenario 2 game where India is in Japanese hands. In two major AARed games now--yours with QB and this one--we have seen that India can represent more than an attractive setting for auto-vic. If the Japanese player chooses he can treat India as an economic engine. If he chooses to pay the garrison price he can source HI from there which exponentially increases his force mix elsewhere.

Ruminating on this last night I was reminded of the "Perpetual Fur Farm" of legend and lore. In this fanciful economic construct, only three commodities exist: rats, minks, and wheat. Rats are eaten by the minks. The minks are killed for their fur, which is sold. The mink carcasses are eaten by the rats. A small injection of wheat is inserted each cycle to feed the rats and make up for the energy loss of the fur leaving the closed system. In this game, rader seemingly produces aircraft for the main purpose of "disposing" of pilots which would otherwise consume HI in the pilot pool. This HI savings allows him to build ever more aircraft, with a "wheat" injection of HI from India. If his low-grade pilots in his increasingly R&D-sophisticated aircraft kill Allied planes, great. GJ owns no Fur Farm; his aircraft are finite. If they don't, still good, since the incessant combat at good Allied loss ratios makes GJ think he's accomplishing something when in fact he is giving rader the one thing he can't manufacture--time.

Attrition warfare is fine as far as it goes, but it's never an end in itself. As was preached at me in my first week at OCS, and what history teaches, is that warships exist solely to influence events ashore. SOLELY. Salamis, Trafalgar, Midway--all major historic naval battles were significant only insofar as they allowed flexibility to operate the land forces concerned. GJ can sink a bunch of IJN ships, but, outside of VPs which are not a factor here to either player, unless he has plans for how to use that freedom to move against the territorial interests of the Japanese those victories will be hollow.

He needs a plan for 1944-46 which extends farther than "break stuff." That's what Nemo is saying, and I don't think it's a revelation nor should it add pressure to his game.

I have urged him to at least re-examine his entire effort on the left third of the map. He is tying down some of the best fighting forces on the map marching and counter-marching on the Road to Multan (and no, it's not a Bob Hope film.) He justifies this by saying he's tying down significant Japanese foces in India. Given what Nemo proposes is rader's posture toward India, and which I hereby dub the Fur Farm Maneuver, I think rader is satisfied with this crude, de facto, modus vivendi. GJ is giving away a HUGE portion of his toolbox. As I said, I've urged him to reconsider, even to the point of abandonning Karachi in order to create an invisible flying wedge off-map available to complicate rader's life immeasurably. He has rejected that course. This is fine, as it's, as always, his game.

But the fact remains that he needs a better macro plan than he has currently shown in the Solomons if he wants to win. If he just wants to learn how to move the pieces around then his present course is sufficient.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

We need to be very careful about putting pressure on GJ here. Any player - even moreso a fairly new one - is going to get a bit of the "willies" when told he is way behind schedule, especially when the opinions are coming from players of the quality who are posting here. Unless he's some kind of prodigy, he's gonig to experience that knot in the stomach that signals, "Hey, the experts are telling me I'm behind. I better get moving and fast!"

Players who act under pressure are going to make mistakes. Multiply that exponentially for relatively new players.

Everybody will agree that GJ has come very far since he started this game. His growth as a player will continue. I believe he has a good grasp on the situation and will be best served moving at his own pace. I also beleive the Allies are growing so strong that GJ, by the judicious use of his forces (especially carriers and fast BBs) will grow more certain of himself, and act increasingly boldly, as he progresses into 1944.

I would agree with the others if rader wasn't throwing ground units, ships, and aircraft into the campaign on a massive scale. GJ is doing an admirable job of defeating rader. I have said many times before the 1943 (Scenario One) and 1944 (Scenario Two) is the Year of Attrition in AE. As '43 has gone on, GJ has exerted more and more pressure, and rader has responded by pushing back; and thus GJ is making good progress while learning much more about how to do things in AE.

Therefore, I urge GJ not to get antsy in reaction to posts here by excellent players. Their advice would hold much more water for an experience player, not one who is now cutting his teeth on the complexities of offensive warfare.

Perhaps this discussion would be better served in the main forum. But that would give rader valuable insights.

It's not for me to opine whether GJ is better than he used to be; opinions on that are clear in this AAR. The more interesting issues, for me, deal with Nemo's points vis a vis the national objectives a situation such as GJ's presents in a Scenario 2 game where India is in Japanese hands. In two major AARed games now--yours with QB and this one--we have seen that India can represent more than an attractive setting for auto-vic. If the Japanese player chooses he can treat India as an economic engine. If he chooses to pay the garrison price he can source HI from there which exponentially increases his force mix elsewhere.

Ruminating on this last night I was reminded of the "Perpetual Fur Farm" of legend and lore. In this fanciful economic construct, only three commodities exist: rats, minks, and wheat. Rats are eaten by the minks. The minks are killed for their fur, which is sold. The mink carcasses are eaten by the rats. A small injection of wheat is inserted each cycle to feed the rats and make up for the energy loss of the fur leaving the closed system. In this game, rader seemingly produces aircraft for the main purpose of "disposing" of pilots which would otherwise consume HI in the pilot pool. This HI savings allows him to build ever more aircraft, with a "wheat" injection of HI from India. If his low-grade pilots in his increasingly R&D-sophisticated aircraft kill Allied planes, great. GJ owns no Fur Farm; his aircraft are finite. If they don't, still good, since the incessant combat at good Allied loss ratios makes GJ think he's accomplishing something when in fact he is giving rader the one thing he can't manufacture--time.

Attrition warfare is fine as far as it goes, but it's never an end in itself. As was preached at me in my first week at OCS, and what history teaches, is that warships exist solely to influence events ashore. SOLELY. Salamis, Trafalgar, Midway--all major historic naval battles were significant only insofar as they allowed flexibility to operate the land forces concerned. GJ can sink a bunch of IJN ships, but, outside of VPs which are not a factor here to either player, unless he has plans for how to use that freedom to move against the territorial interests of the Japanese those victories will be hollow.

He needs a plan for 1944-46 which extends farther than "break stuff." That's what Nemo is saying, and I don't think it's a revelation nor should it add pressure to his game.

I have urged him to at least re-examine his entire effort on the left third of the map. He is tying down some of the best fighting forces on the map marching and counter-marching on the Road to Multan (and no, it's not a Bob Hope film.) He justifies this by saying he's tying down significant Japanese foces in India. Given what Nemo proposes is rader's posture toward India, and which I hereby dub the Fur Farm Maneuver, I think rader is satisfied with this crude, de facto, modus vivendi. GJ is giving away a HUGE portion of his toolbox. As I said, I've urged him to reconsider, even to the point of abandonning Karachi in order to create an invisible flying wedge off-map available to complicate rader's life immeasurably. He has rejected that course. This is fine, as it's, as always, his game.

But the fact remains that he needs a better macro plan than he has currently shown in the Solomons if he wants to win. If he just wants to learn how to move the pieces around then his present course is sufficient.

Hi BW and thanks for taking time to write this down!

My view is that all those LCUs that i keep in India are forcing Rader to keep those 500k men there...imagine how could he garrison the DEI /PI /Mariannas with all those men...

I honestly think i have a plan. The advance towards PI using a double vector through NG (east and west)...sure it takes time...and i think i'll be close to Rabaul by march 1944...which is bad, i now...but this game will last till 1946...
Now if i add to the original plan the new (still a work in progress) idea for BALI, i think it can be done even without the Indian Army...provided that all those japs LCUs remain in India...

If i start to move troops out of India Rader will simply move his troops out in a proportional manner...and i surely have not the transport capabilities to bring out of Karachi anything more than a couple of divisions at the same time... This will slow down the whole process or reposition a whole new army...not to talk about the problems related with the ships that would need to be moved out of the SOPAC...time is running fast, as you say, and i cannot keep on changing plans over and over...Now i'm massing forces in Perth area...with preparation points etc etc...it would be mad to change everything again and assembly a new amphibious force for another massive operation starting from CT... in the Solomons i still need transport ships in order to keep on advancing...

I do see your point about Rader getting me doing what he wants me to do...even if i don't grab yet the complexity of japanese economy (and the equations between HI, pilots, planes etc etc), i do see that the simple fact that he can produce as much airframes as he wishes gives him the ability to delay my advance simply throwing at me hordes of planes, without caring about losses...

But i don't see how i can change this course of things, so i'll leave with that and will keep on advancing... I also think that the last 6 months in SOPAC/SWPAC, with the conquest of PM, Milne, Mereuake, Auki and Rekata, and the heavy losses taken by the japs, prooved that Rader can be beaten in his own chosen terrain...and if you say that that was all calculated by him and part of his strategy, i'd say that it's you the one who is overstimating him too much this time.
We can advance. We can overwhelm his positions... it takes time tough...i know...but this game will last long...and in an a-historical scenario like this one i think it's not that wrong not to look at the watch too much.

Even if our ideas disagree, i really thank you for sharing your thoughts... throughout the whole game so far your and others' ideas have really helped me to understand and to change my approach...i'm still learning...i know...but it's just because of your help that now i am where i am (wherever it would be)[:)]

Thanks!

[Xargun]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

My view is that all those LCUs that i keep in India are forcing Rader to keep those 500k men there...imagine how could he garrison the DEI /PI /Mariannas with all those men...


If i start to move troops out of India Rader will simply move his troops out in a proportional manner...and i surely have not the transport capabilities to bring out of Karachi anything more than a couple of divisions at the same time... This will slow down the whole process or reposition a whole new army...not to talk about the problems related with the ships that would need to be moved out of the SOPAC...time is running fast, as you say, and i cannot keep on changing plans over and over...Now i'm massing forces in Perth area...with preparation points etc etc...it would be mad to change everything again and assembly a new amphibious force for another massive operation starting from CT... in the Solomons i still need transport ships in order to keep on advancing...

Thanks!

One thing no one has mentioned - those thousands AV in units currently sitting in India are locked to an unforgiving HQ - China (in one form or another). There is a reason he has so many men still there - the only other place they can go with be Russia - they are bound to Asia until he pays the PP cost to change their HQ. There is no way he will ever have enough PPs to move a large number of those units out of Asia - so if you abandoned India you can move your units elsewhere where he cannot. Everything you cannot move, just leave behind to keep what you have.

I'm not saying you need to do this, but just remember you can move your stuff around alot easier than he can. If its attached to an Asian HQ he has to 'buy' its freedom to move it outside Asia - that goes for Air Units as well.

BTW - I would send a small TF of DDs up and bombard / scout that island West of Christmas Island in the Java area. If lightly defended I would take it. That opens all of Sumatra and Java to invasion and threatens his precious oil / fuel supply. Even if you don't have any intentions of invading, it would draw forces to defend them.

Xargun

[Cribtop]

First off, I'm still looking for Coconut Island on my map, GJ. You mentioned 61st Division is there about a page back.

Second, you do realize that a force in Karachi can stalemate at least four times its number of IJA? In other words, where you seek to pin Rader you needn't have 1:1 parity in troops. I add my voice to the chorus suggesting that something be done with India. As CR points out, don't let this discussion goad you into a rash invasion of Coconut Island (which may or may not exist in this space-time continuum). Instead, consider your desired end state for the war and then create a plan to achieve it. The advance toward the PI could work to isolate the resources of India and the DEI from the Home Islands. OK, if that's the plan, how do you get there with the best force correlations to achieve victory? If some other plan is better, what does that look like? What are the diversionary actions to accompany any plan? How would they act as force multipliers by tying down more troops than you commit?

I think you've advanced your play nicely. Perhaps it is time to step outside the comfort zone you've done well to achieve and try elevate it to yet another level.

[Canoerebel]

I swear I'm not pandering to GJ, heaping insincere compliments on him in some kind of display of glad-handing, but....

GJ, don't listen to these gents! Listen to me! Only I know what I'm talking about! Nemo? Bullwinkle? Cribtop? Bah! They don't know what they are talking about!

[:)]

Seriously, though, GJ. I urge to keep doing exactly what you are doing. I urge you to resist the siren songs coming from these gentlemen. Their urgings that you "do more" and "move faster."

Don't. I promise you this - I guarantee you this - if you continue your present course, especially in two respects that I'll list momentarily, you will find yourself in great position one year from now (the end of 1944) to complete the end game and earn a victory, if not by points at least by closing on Japan proper to administer the military coup-de-grace.

The two vital things that you are doing: (1) preserving intact your carriers and fast BBs, and (2) advancing steadily, keeping the pressure on, as you learn how to make use of your assets, handle logists, organize complex offensives and amphibious operations, and deal with a veteran and cagy opponent and his defensive tactics.

By all means, employ your carriers if in doing so you have a reasonable shot at coming out ahead in a carrier battle, but otherwise keep those babies safe. If you continue as you are now, your rate of advance will increase dramatically as you gain experience, your forces grow stronger, and rader's grow weaker. In mid and late 1944 you'll be organizing moves that will bring you close to the Home Islands and/or the DEI. And if you have the carrier advantage by then, you will be in a position to do what you want and where you want to do it.

I'm not suggesting you dally. Instead, I think you're doing exactly what you ought to be doing.

[princep01]

Well...he had better listen to me!:)

princep Bolton

[obvert]

I've studied the map for 2 hours this morning... an invasion of Sumatra passing by the way Obvert just pointed out seems doable, provided that i bring with my all my CV/CVL/CVE fleet.
The point, imho, is that once the surprise is broken (let's say at least 4 days before the landings) i need to hurry up and take at least 3 mutual supporting bases...
Ok, let's say i do it cause those 3 bases on the western coast of Sumatra are lightly defended (consider that, a part from the Intel, i won't have any clue about what he has there...)
...so i've taken those three bases...

...Rader will be moving lots of stuff to the theatre...but then? My communication lines will be non-existent...i'll have to rely only on what i brought there... If i was Rader i wouldn't bother much...i'll simply flood the area with Nells/Betties/Frances and some 1000 LBA fighters (in one week he can easily transfer those numbers (in India he has 400 fighters for example)...he could simply halt my advance and keep my comm lines shut (the KB will have an easy job doing that under the LBA umbrella...)

With all due respect to the vets here who are able to see this much more in depth than I do currently, I will add one more piece and then let you continue on with what you're going to do. The thing I like about Sabang is that it's got a nice little road going all of the way down past Medan. This is a good road, not a yellow road. The 5 divisions you land there can just walk nicely down that road to take more territory while you put about 200 fighters in to cover their butts. It's not going to be easy for him to bomb them in that terrain either. (The islands off of the coast of Sumatra are very vulnerable as well once you have a foothold).

If Rader is going to move all of his airforce there as you suggest, then this does exactly what you want it to do by forcing him to move his forces out of the two areas you'd like to fight them in, the Solomons and India. You don't have to win the battle in Sumatra to be successful. It just relieves pressure elsewhere. Maybe without 400 bombers there, your troops could achieve something in India. He could neutralize that area if he brought everything, but then the map opens up for other options. And it would be very tough to take back that base once you have it.

As for communication, it would take the KB 10 days to even move over there. Your carriers guard the passage while ships dump supply and support troops in. If you're worried about supporting those troops only bring enough to take the base and few enough that you don't mind losing them. It still changes the game even if the foothold is shut down in a matter of months. He would have to take it back or keep up the pressure, or else you just go back to supplying the base and moving down the coast. Think how hard it was for you to deal with Rader's stranded troops in the Solomons.

You're doing fine in the current paths, and you should stick to your plans, and I know one of those is to invade somewhere else. I just think Bali (with its one base and no walking anywhere) will be much tougher to take with more bases to deal with and closer to the battle already raging in the Solomons and New Guinea.

[Schlemiel]

I wonder what the conquest of China and India means for transporting resources out of the DEI? Would the capture of the PI really stop it like it can in most games? Can Japan take advantage of the Burma Road to move supplies up through China to ports in the China Sea mostly immune to interdiction at the moment? I know as the allies when I controlled both Burma and the path through Indochina in an ai game, I could drop supplies in Rangoon and Singapore and support any force I liked in China without really risking any ships. Can the resources be moved in the same way as the Japanese that even the loss of the PI would potentially have no impact on the Japanese economy? If so, you may need to capture Rangoon (or something the Burma Road) and cut the rails in Indochina to stop the resource flow out of the dei.


I would be unsurprised if all the production in China and India is going to reserves that can keep him operating all war. Especially since by the time you get to the PI, I presume he will be done with all naval construction. It's quite possible the only way to damage his economy long term is to directly bomb the factories, and he'll no doubt have jets defending them. So you'll need plans to take fighter bases in range of the HI and beware of counterpunches there. When your supply lines are long through the PI, he may become very bold again in landing tons of soldiers anywhere you invade to keep you out of fighter range of the HI. Nemo has shown how effective that kind of counter punch can be in his Nemesis AAR. Of course in Rader's other AAR, one huge reason he invaded Russia was to keep their airbases out of the range of the HI because of the mischief that can be caused there. I would definitely not agree to a new hr about that no matter how much he complains to take advantage of that, but I would have a plan to get the forces needed there.

Also, you've talked about it briefly, but I'd personally plan on how to use the Soviet forces to open airbases for you in Korea once you can (he'll no doubt invest in a robust defense against that, as I'm sure he has the pseudo-landbridge open and maxmimized to resources and oil from the mainland to the HI. If you can deny him that landbridge, he will be forced to use shipping for anything that reaches the HI (presuming he still needs anything) and those bases in southern Korea can support fighter sweeps just about anywhere. Of course having a route to get your other engineers and base forces and supplies to Soviet space provides its own challenge, but that's certainly something I'd keep in mind in your planning.

Basically I'm suggesting that because of the nature of this specific game, common wisdom about the importance of the PI in controlling shipping routes may not end up being relevant at all to the end game economy, if it would even be relevant now. Make sure your plans in the PI involve some way to hit the home islands and not count on shutting down or slowing his economy. That said, I don't intend this to be depressing. You'll learn amazing lessons that will translate very well from your efforts and I think many of us would be fascinated to see just what the capture of the PI would mean in this game. Beside, if you can reach the end game with decent fighter bases in range of the HI, it might be possible and even recommended to just nuke his industry into the ground. It might be a relatively "cheap" thing in the manner of winning the game, but it would be pretty satisfying and the "how do I deal with nukes" thread could be epic Even if it costs you a level of victory or would mean a decisive Japanese victory at the end of the scenario in 1946, I would just ignore that.

[GreyJoy]

A lot of food for brain here guys...thanks!

I'm hard thinking about the future. Can't say all your suggestions aren't melting in my dumb head and aren't creating a sort of brainstorm... Just give some days to aximilate all these inputs and try to sort out a kind of a strategic plan that could take everything into consideration..

Thank u in advance...thank you all,

The war doesn't stop while we think however...

Dec 09, 10 1943

Our landing fleet stopped at Tulagi to refuel and, during a clear night, hordes of Betties came to claim their blood... our night fighters are present in decent number but are aboslutely useless, even if composed of crack fighter pilots....[:@]...luckly my ships aren't hit...but i need to find a countermove for his night naval attacks...a counter move that WORKS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 13



Allied aircraft
P-70 Havoc x 9
PV-1N Ventura x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
BB Mississippi
BB Colorado



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VMF(N)-531 with PV-1N Ventura (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
15th FG/6th NFS with P-70 Havoc (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on TF, near Tulagi at 114,137

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 22



Allied aircraft
P-70 Havoc x 9
PV-1N Ventura x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CVE Barnes
CVE Breton
CVE Nassau
CVE Altamaha



Aircraft Attacking:
21 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VMF(N)-531 with PV-1N Ventura (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
15th FG/6th NFS with P-70 Havoc (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 8000
Raid is overhead





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


During the day my AUS paras from PM landed at Buna and took the base - almost undefended - while our infantry divisions were entering into the town...

Ground combat at Buna (99,129)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 593 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1289

Defending force 95 troops, 12 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Allied adjusted assault: 21

Japanese adjusted defense: 3

Allied assault odds: 7 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Buna !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), op mode(-), leaders(+), fatigue(-)
experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units retreated 1



Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
27th Infantry Division
2nd Australian Division
3rd Australian Division
30th Australian Brigade
1st Australian Para Bn /1
I Australian Corps
II Australian

Defending units:
29th Field AA Machinecannon Company


Now we have Buna so...exposed to his naval bombings...gotta move out asap... waiting for my tanks and engeneers and then we'll move out of it, moving towards Salamua and the japanese 30,000 men 17th Army!

[Jzanes]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Our landing fleet stopped at Tulagi to refuel and, during a clear night, hordes of Betties came to claim their blood... our night fighters are present in decent number but are aboslutely useless, even if composed of crack fighter pilots....[:@]...luckly my ships aren't hit...but i need to find a countermove for his night naval attacks...a counter move that WORKS

Try sending a couple hundred night heavy bombers vs. his main airfields for a couple days and I bet he'll ask for a night bombing house rule real quick. at least that's how it worked out in our game.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Our landing fleet stopped at Tulagi to refuel and, during a clear night, hordes of Betties came to claim their blood... our night fighters are present in decent number but are aboslutely useless, even if composed of crack fighter pilots....[:@]...luckly my ships aren't hit...but i need to find a countermove for his night naval attacks...a counter move that WORKS

Try sending a couple hundred night heavy bombers vs. his main airfields for a couple days and I bet he'll ask for a night bombing house rule real quick. at least that's how it worked out in our game.

we already have it since the game start... number of night bombers flying = moon percentage /2

[ADB123]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Our landing fleet stopped at Tulagi to refuel and, during a clear night, hordes of Betties came to claim their blood... our night fighters are present in decent number but are aboslutely useless, even if composed of crack fighter pilots....[:@]...luckly my ships aren't hit...but i need to find a countermove for his night naval attacks...a counter move that WORKS

Try sending a couple hundred night heavy bombers vs. his main airfields for a couple days and I bet he'll ask for a night bombing house rule real quick. at least that's how it worked out in our game.

we already have it since the game start... number of night bombers flying = moon percentage /2

Did you follow-up with 35 4Es sent at night to one of his Air Fields?

[GreyJoy]

Dec 11, 12 1943

It was a day of a mistake.
In the past days i sent several minesweeper TFs to sweep mines at Munda...no matter how many i sent there the mine symbol didn't go away...so i decided to attack three xAPs to 2 DMS...they should arrive at night, sweep, and then get back to Tulagi...

Result was that they arrived at day...they didn't sweep anything and we got overwhelmed by several IJAAF attacks that clobbered the three transports...my leaky CAP did arrive but only in small pieces and got beaten by his strong escort...30 fighters down for me for 50 a/c of his own...not a good result.

In NG my 4Es plastered Nazareb again (no opposition) to keep the dreaded 9 AF closed...

His Betties paid another visit at my ships at Tulagi...this time 22 Betties arrived and we managed to shoot down 2 of them...but however 20 got through...luckly my AA dealt with them... but my naghtjag sucks anyway[:@]

Tomorrow we'll invade Munda.
An Amphib TF composed of APAs/AKAs and LSDs, supported by 4 BBs, 4 DDs and several SCs and AMs will bring 2 Divisions and 2 tank BNs to Munda... landing TFs will follow with the rest of the equipment...

Strong CAP is ordered, along with 2 different SCTFs group...one composed of 2 fast BBs, 2 CAs and 8 DDs, the other composed of 4 modern CLs and 8 DDs.....finger crossed...