Why wargaming can never grow

[Marc von Martial]

I might as well just call that an outright case of pure bull, a bold faced lie even.

If gameplay first meant anything to this argument, then I would have no ammo to work with would I.

But the truth of it is, that people want that glamour, because the feel they can't compete without it.

That is just plain hillarious. The initial post in this thread was about a game which was found good in gameplay but with not so good graphics. That was the initital complaint in this thread. Then you came Les and turned it the other way around, all you do is impliying that everybody here says "Gimme glamor before gameplay". A lot of times people here tried to point out that they want nice graphics with good gamplay !!! I even pointed out that with the help of nice graphics, boxart, whatsoever, you even able to raise new wargaming recruits.

You´re so rock solid in your so called "points" that you totally miss that it seems. I guess you brainwashed yourself.

And then this pathetic "everybody is picking on my boardgames", what a load of BS. When did somebody here say that boardgames are boring or suck ???

Now some new ammo for the graphics part. How comes that boardgame reviews mention when the game comes with an extraordinary nice box, counters map and manual , hmmmm ? I think because it´s not important.

Les a question for you: If you were to take a chess game and dress it up in a new display that not only pleased existing fans but also brought one hundred new to the genre, would that be a good or bad thing? Would the game play any differently?

No, it would be prostituting the Game of Kings. You would be a heretic to be doomed for eternal pains and suffer in the hottest spot of the purgatory.

[Raverdave]

I think that les is just an old dog that can't learn new tricks.....I had another post in which I said that WarHammer modelling was good because it brough new blood to the art of model making....Les said no, warhammer stuff was crap and over priced and as such was a waste of time.

Well just some six months on from last discussing this, my son whom used to be a warhammer nut, has now moved onto making WW2 tanks (Oh my poor wallet).

It is my contention that it does not matter how some one is hooked, it is the fact that you GET someone hooked that matters....be it modelling or wargaming.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Marc von Martial]

I am constantly hearing how great this game or that game is. The games that require you to have a vintage computer just to run it.

One comment totally contradicts the other.
If that old C64 game IS truely any good, then you have just shown that the latest the neatest the more graphically intense game is NOT in need of those graphics.

So which is it people.

That´s no contradiction at all Les, since this classic games were mostly up the standards when they where released. They still play good although the graphics and such are obsolete.

You will have major difficulties to sell a game with superb gameplay and the graphics of Kampfgruppe these days. That is a fact. When I speak about sales, I´m speaking about sales that allow you to compete and produce the next game you invision, thus keeping wargaming alive with new releases and provide games to the people that want them.

I don´t see a contradiction at all here.

[Raindog101]

Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
You will have major difficulties to sell a game with superb gameplay and the graphics of Kampfgruppe these days. That is a fact. When I speak about sales, I´m speaking about sales that allow you to compete and produce the next game you invision, thus keeping wargaming alive with new releases and provide games to the people that want them.

I don’t understand how “Les the Sarge” can expect a game company to stay in business making new wargames with 80’s era graphics for the 6 or 7 people on Earth demanding them.

Even if the company has to make a mass market game now and then to pays the bills, it’s fine with me as long as they keep making games like Uncommon Valor.

[BrubakerII]

Originally posted by Old Eagle101
Even if the company has to make a mass market game now and then to pays the bills, it’s fine with me as long as they keep making games like Uncommon Valor.

Amen Eagle. The mass (gaming) market is often criticised but never forget it is the purse that drives the production of these games and allows us to even be here discussing it. If not for a Sudden Strike or Medal of Honour there may well be no Combat Mission or Uncommon Valour. Having said that I will state that even at 39 years of age I enjoy FPS and RTS games. God if they were around in the mid seventies then the older guys teaching me D@D and Third Reich would be playing them too. God bless computers and god bless the joy they bring us, may they continue to till we are as old as our grandparents.


@Old Eagle101: Personal question. I am presuming here you are a vet of sorts - do you mind sharing a service history? Just interested.

Brubaker

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

I find it odd how you guys can carry on an entire conversation, then assume that certain comments were never made, that certain points were never raised.

Then you expect the world to be unable to read the course of the entire thread, and assume that I am the only one on my side of the opinion. That as I am the only one speaking my side of the coin, I am clearly the only one supporting it.

You seem comfortable with the fact that as I never quote anyone, I am therefore unable to prove I have never read anyones comments.

Sorry guys, I don't waste space in my posts with your posts.

As for games that were up to standards when they were released, they are still up to standards now. Otherwise they are not. But I have been told by fans that they are.

Now seeing as we are dragging outside comments in here let me drag this one in.

Yes I was not to "pro" SC for a time, because I wanted the game to be very much like A3R when I stated checking out the demo. I have the game though currently. I have been playing it, and I can say it is still not A3R in game play, but it also has its own merits.

It is A not over priced. It has B a very clean interface. C it looks like a board game, and this has apparently not done thing one to hinder it. D the game has no pointless graphical enhancements. So E you can design a good well liked game that say F you guys are all wrong.

As for Warhammer. I see you son making models after playing Wahammer, with several friends that started to play and then realised the game was crap and left the hobby entirely.
Oh and lets put a different slant on that lad. Maybe he is making model tanks and not playing Warhammer because he doesn't like Warhammer because Warhammer sucks like I said it does.
If it was any good, he might still be playing Warhammer.
After several years lots of people still play Steel panthers for a reason eh, it doesn't suck. Lots of people have tweaked the hell out of it, why, because the original game was so much fun.

But as Marc has pointed out, we have drifted from the original post. Guess what Marc, there isn't a forum in existence that has a single thread tha stays glued rock solid to the original post.
Come to think of it, I have also never once in my life had a single conversation after 40 years, where the original comment was the sole focus of the conversation.

So that point was a waste of your time to type it. It was in effect a pointless point.

Difficulty in making sales with older graphics, what a hoot. Thats why modern film has such incredible graphics and special effects (all grossly innaccurate in most cases). The people are only interested in making money.
Basing a business around making decent credible wargames and just credible wargames, is not exactly a strong basis for making money. I don't like the fact that wargaming is a small numbers hobby, but I can live with it. Reality bites.

Brain washed, no I ain't brain washed, why do you think you are having such difficulty selling me on all your obvious hoggwash.

You say this conversation is about people saying gameplay is where you want it, that graphics is important but it isn't the be all and end all of the process. I suggest you tape record your self saying those remarks you post hear, maybe your ears work better than your eyes.

People are NOT picking on board games, who said that, not me.
People are playing board games just fine.

I find it funny people need to insert quotes, you must think that those silent readers can't remember my posts correctly. Maybe you are afraid they won't read through the whole thread.
Maybe you guys should also insert the full text of all my posts start to finish each and every time. At least that way the post readership would get to hear all of what I said and not snippets you decide to take out of context.

Thats the same way the world's religious loonies manage to distort the original messages normally. It's amazing how you can make a new message by singling out and carefully omitting parts of the full comment.

[Tbone3336]

Welcome to the boards, and don't worry, most threads are not this inane. [/B]

Thanks Swamp Yankee, nice to meet you and the others. Most threads like this are ok, if it stays mostly in fun. I have surfed these boards since Nov, and have just gotten back to wargaming as I mentioned so I did not have much to add to most threads. The battlefront games were a whole lot of fun and since there were few Mac wargames, I had a chance to really get into them. Another point that goes along with this thread is I have seen a vast improvement in how the computer in certain games can put you in a forced role as commander (Uncommon Valor, Airborne Assualt) and really enhance the feeling of what command of units was like when you do not have direct control, IE orders delays and such. The battlefront games tried to convey this years ago but fell short a bit IMO, but were still great games. I will concur though that when I did boardgame it was alot of fun to have a few friends hang out and laugh and BS together over the games (just like this forum and thread allows us to do though just not face to face), unfortunatley as I aged that became something that could be done once every three or so months. Again thanks for the welcome!:)

[Marc von Martial]

It's amazing how you can make a new message by singling out and carefully omitting parts of the full comment.

You´re a master of this yourself, even without quoting .

One could think you are a lawyer with a cum laude diploma on content and word twisting, hey maybe a job opportunity for you

Now this get´s really tiresome ... off to make some spicy graphics

[BrubakerII]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
I find it odd how you guys can carry on an entire conversation, then assume that certain comments were never made, that certain points were never raised.

Then you expect the world to be unable to read the course of the entire thread, and assume that I am the only one on my side of the opinion. That as I am the only one speaking my side of the coin, I am clearly the only one supporting it.

You seem comfortable with the fact that as I never quote anyone, I am therefore unable to prove I have never read anyones comments.

Ha ha. Okay Les I am comfortable that this is not taken out of context. In fact of anyone wants to read this post in its entiret, it is but two posts above this one :p

The fact is Les you stated only a few posts back that people here prefer graphiocs to gameplay. It was Marc(?) who called you to show where that was the case. You have not done so. In fact you have not done so because it is simply BS. Perhaps you do not like quoting posts simply because there is nothing in those posts to support your argument and that by doing so you might embarass yourself?

Sorry guys, I don't waste space in my posts with your posts.

Clearly :rolleyes:

As for games that were up to standards when they were released, they are still up to standards now. Otherwise they are not. But I have been told by fans that they are.

Okay well I call your bluff here - exactly what fans and where?

Now seeing as we are dragging outside comments in here let me drag this one in.

By all means. This is called substantiation.

I find it funny people need to insert quotes, you must think that those silent readers can't remember my posts correctly. Maybe you are afraid they won't read through the whole thread.
Maybe you guys should also insert the full text of all my posts start to finish each and every time. At least that way the post readership would get to hear all of what I said and not snippets you decide to take out of context.

You have a point here Les but the fact remains that by quoting people from there own posts made only hours earlier, it is easy and effective to call people to account for their anonymous ramblings. Take your claim that people want graphics and not gameplay for instance, something you have stated but yet to substantiate.

Brubaker

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well it was an interesting way to waste thursday.

Well maybe not interesting. But I have plans for today.

So you guys will have to make use of what I have said in whatever fashion you will.

Largely for the same reason, that I will eventually walk away from religious loonies as well. Some conversations are not worth winning, so fighting them is a waste in time resources.

[Raindog101]

Originally posted by BrubakerII
Ha ha. Okay Les I am comfortable that this is not taken out of context. In fact of anyone wants to read this post in its entiret, it is but two posts above this one :p

The fact is Les you stated only a few posts back that people here prefer graphiocs to gameplay. It was Marc(?) who called you to show where that was the case. You have not done so. In fact you have not done so because it is simply BS. Perhaps you do not like quoting posts simply because there is nothing in those posts to support your argument and that by doing so you might embarass yourself?



Clearly :rolleyes:



Okay well I call your bluff here - exactly what fans and where?



By all means. This is called substantiation.



You have a point here Les but the fact remains that by quoting people from there own posts made only hours earlier, it is easy and effective to call people to account for their anonymous ramblings. Take your claim that people want graphics and not gameplay for instance, something you have stated but yet to substantiate.

Brubaker

Brubaker you deserve a Silver Star for deciphering the “Sarge’s” ramble. He lost me with this one;
__________________________
quote:

"As for games that were up to standards when they were released, they are still up to standards now. Otherwise they are not. But I have been told by fans that they are."
____________________________

Huh?.

[Raverdave]

As for Warhammer. I see you son making models after playing Wahammer, with several friends that started to play and then realised the game was crap and left the hobby entirely.
Oh and lets put a different slant on that lad. Maybe he is making model tanks and not playing Warhammer because he doesn't like Warhammer because Warhammer sucks like I said it does.
If it was any good, he might still be playing Warhammer.
After several years lots of people still play Steel panthers for a reason eh, it doesn't suck. Lots of people have tweaked the hell out of it, why, because the original game was so much fun.

Yes he may well have thought that the game was crap, but you are missing the point, and this is what I was trying to put across last time we talked on this. The interest that was started with the crap warhammer gaming has sparked an interest in other areas of modelling and WarGaming. It does not matter how you hook them, just solong as you do hook them.......Cigarette companies have known this for years.

I find it funny people need to insert quotes, you must think that those silent readers can't remember my posts correctly. Maybe you are afraid they won't read through the whole thread.

Nah....I just love wasting some one else's bandwidth;)

[CCB]

Oh how I wish there was a wooden stake I could drive through the heart of this thread!

Or maybe its immortal like in that movie Highlander, "There can only be one!" :p

[SwampYankee68]

3 entries found for curmudgeon.
cur·mudg·eon ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-mjn)
n.
An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin unknown.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cur·mudgeon·ly adj.
cur·mudgeon·ry n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[Buy it]


curmudgeon

\Cur*mudg"eon\ (k?r-m?j"?n), n. [OE. cornmudgin, where -mudgin is prob. from OF. muchier, mucier, F. musser to hide; of uncertain origin; cf. OE. muchares skulking thieves, E. miche, micher.] An avaricious, grasping fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl.

A gray-headed curmudgeon of a negro. --W. Irving.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


curmudgeon

n : a crusty irascible cantankerous old person full of stubborn ideas


I yield the floor for further discussion...

[Kanon Fodder]

To put things another way :

If I originally saw a movie in black-and-white (because we didn't own a colour TV when I was a kid) should I refuse to watch the DVD on a state-of-the-art home theatre ?

(Not that I have one of those ...)


(But I don't have a B&W TV any more either ...)

[Mikimoto]

Hi, nah!

Seems that everybody has understanding problems with the same person, lately! Crappy people, eh??? I don't post so much in Matrix forums guys... but I coudn't resist... Sorry, eh, eh?

Best regards
Mikimoto

[Reiryc]

I remember an eon ago when I first bought 'Decision in the Desert' and thought to myself, Wow, this computer thingy (C64)has got potential !

Wow....one of my favorite games for the c128! I miss that game =\

[Reiryc]

Seems that everybody has understanding problems with the same person, lately

Yes and he still doesn't get it...

The definition posted of curmudgeon is dead on....

Reiryc

[CCB]

Ah come on guys! Don't give Les a hard time, he's a cool dude. He's just very passionate about his wargames.

[carllafong]

Les, some people really do not have the time , nor the space to keep up with board games. I used to play them and they were time consuming, space consuming and sometimes very frustrating. I think as some of us get older, start careers, get married, children, etc...we have to put things in perspective. I don't know anyone anymore who can spend the time to play boardgames, but can play TCP/IP, or PBEM. It works for alot of us. Graphics do not a game make. The playability, and replayability is what makes it, graphics can and do enhance an already good game. You may not agee, and that is fine. To each his own.

Res Ipsa Loquitor