Heavy Bombers supporting ground forces?

adantas · Post by **adantas** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 12:30 am

Hi folks!
we alredy know that close support from planes can be useful in some situations but how about the havies? I didn't play U2R yet so I don't know if the guys from Matrix simulated the effects of heavy aerial bombardments but if not, I think that could be interesting to do it and observe the supression effects of waves of B'24s and B'17s or even He177 or Lancasters dropping their loads over the battlefield.

--------------
Senta à Pua!!!

RUsco · Post by **RUsco** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 12:33 am

The B-17 is avalable fore the Victors Campaign. I had used 2 ea. used them to soon to see any results. Lost on and the other damaged.

Kharan · Post by **Kharan** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 12:39 am

Should B-17's really be available to purchase in random battles (43 onwards)?

adantas · Post by **adantas** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 12:43 am

Originally posted by RUsco:
The B-17 is avalable fore the Victors Campaign. I had used 2 ea. used them to soon to see any results. Lost on and the other damaged.

well, great if we can use them but sounds strange to me that you had one shooted..
Such strikes were usually made from higher alt and I don't think that Ivan has large AA guns to use against B'17s in this campaign.

--------------
Senta à Pua!!!

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 12:51 am

Should heavy bombers be included in a tactical level game like SPWAW? Probably not.

A. There is only one (that I can think of right now) incident in the ETO where heavies were used in close proximity to ground forces. The results were disasterous. I know that many of us take historical liberties with the game. I'm probably the most guilty here with my men-of-iron paras in U2R. However, having access to heavies on a regular basis would take this liberality to extremes.

B. I used to play a board game called Fire Team: Modern Squad Level Command. In the designer notes, the developer addressed why the team did not include the A-10, Soviet Frogger (is that the right name for the Soviet tank buster?), or tatical nukes. The game scale just wasn't appropriate for such heavy hitters. The designer went on to say that if people really wanted the tank busting aircraft, all they had to do was drag a wisk broom acroos the board and continue playing with the remaining pieces. If they wanted to simulate tactical nukes, players should light a corner of the board on fire and continue playing until all of the pieces were consumed.

So, perhaps to model the regular use of heavies in SPWAW, we should throw a rock through the monitor screen.

Lou

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:01 am

To portray the use of heavy bombers in a scenario, I do the following.

Heavy bombers, as mentioned by Lou, are not really a part of a tactical level game like SPWAW.

But I wanted them to simulate the heavy bombing at St Lo.

So I took artillery, figured out the size shell that equates to 500 pound bombs and used it as a saturation bombing process.

It worked well. When you play the campaign U2R, you'll come across a battle where it begins with B-17s making a bombing raid. You can't see them of course nor fire at them. They are way too high for that.

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

adantas · Post by **adantas** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:47 am

Originally posted by Wild Bill:
To portray the use of heavy bombers in a scenario, I do the following.

Heavy bombers, as mentioned by Lou, are not really a part of a tactical level game like SPWAW.

But I wanted them to simulate the heavy bombing at St Lo.

So I took artillery, figured out the size shell that equates to 500 pound bombs and used it as a saturation bombing process.

It worked well. When you play the campaign U2R, you'll come across a battle where it begins with B-17s making a bombing raid. You can't see them of course nor fire at them. They are way too high for that.

Wild Bill

Ahhh!! this is the point! WB, I agreed with all of you that SPWAW isn't the game which we can buy havies for support.
My question was about simulate some battles in scenarios or campaings where the havies took part as St Lo or Cassino heights at Italy.
Good point guys!

--------------
Senta à Pua!!!

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:53 am

Bill - Yes, you can fire at the B-17's, I dropped you a note on this if you remember.

During a particular U2R scenario, I've had German 150mm FH fire at the B-17's and score hits!!! I thought this was great fun, didn't bother me at all, though it might bother other players. Also, I"ve had the B-17's go counterbattery against the German arty, with variable results.

BTW, on a v4.5 replay of U2R, the German field arty did not take on the B-17's - too busy scrounging for food, I'll bet.

Bing

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 5:03 am

Yeah, B-17:s can be bought to generated battles, to pbem and so on. Too bad I had not enough to buy more than one section to my Pac-42 pbem game

First plane was so huge that it droped down after two 40mmflaks hit (?!), other survived to dropping zone and cleared pretty much of the hillside

Infantry vanished nicely from the woods and so on. If buying arty I could use it thru the game but B-17:s drop their bombs and thats it. Big bombs

I don't use so much arty so it would be nice to use more planes for it. At east-43 I use He111:s and those bomber Junkers. For fun. I just wish they could carry napalm...

mosh

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 9:13 pm

They were generally included for scenario designers, for example in the old Pon du Hoc scen I did , there was a squadron of bpombers that went in just before the Rangers landed, so the german defenders would typically be a bit shell shocked for a few turns. Agree that in general heavy bombers, like heavy artillery support, did not play a role at the game's scale.

We felt in general to err on the side of putting things in the game if at all possible, rather than leaving them out, and leaving it to the player or scen desinger what it is appropriate!

Lou · Post by **Lou** » Sat Dec 30, 2000 11:29 pm

We felt in general to err on the side of putting things in the game if at all possible, rather than leaving them out, and leaving it to the player or scen desinger what it is appropriate![/B]

However, after struggling with the "easier" version of the Victors, I could really go for a tall frosty glass of heavy bombers right about now.

<sigh> I'll manage somehow.

Lou

skukko · Post by **skukko** » Sun Dec 31, 2000 5:26 am

Paul Vebber : Understood.

but sometimes it's just have to be fun...