The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

Chickenboy · Post by **Chickenboy** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:59 pm

ORIGINAL: castor troy

hmm, crazy, have never seen ships being hit from supply unloading before. Never. [&:] And I had bases with roughly a hundred CD guns of all different types.

My experiences differ from yours and are more similar to Crackaces', particularly so for dedicated CDs. In other words, yes, supply TFs get smacked by CD guns.

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:02 pm

Sep 20,21 1944
 
In the meanwhile the war goes on.
Our re-suplly convoy for Aomori decided to stay home and not to move...while our BBs are smashing every day his bases (but due to CD guns and forts very light damage occurs).
 
The only interesting news is that our Fletcher divisions are starting to hurt his ASW TFs badly south of Tokyo...
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hirosaki/Aomori at 118,54
 
Japanese Ships
      LB-501, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
      LB-132, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
      LB-131, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
      LB-134, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
      LB-133, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
      BB New Mexico
      CA London
      CA Australia
      CA San Francisco
 
Japanese ground losses:
      62 casualties reported
         Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
         Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
 
 
 
Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 24
Port hits 2
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hirosaki/Aomori at 118,54
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      E13A1 Jake: 3 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      LB-135, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
      BB Richelieu
      BB Alabama
      BB Massachusetts
      CA Salt Lake City
 
Japanese ground losses:
      159 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
         Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 14 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
      Guns lost 7 (2 destroyed, 5 disabled)
 
 
 
Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 8
Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 1
 
BB Richelieu firing at 21st Division
BB Alabama firing at Hirosaki/Aomori
BB Massachusetts firing at 24th Division
CA Salt Lake City firing at Hirosaki/Aomori
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Ominato at 119,54 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
 
95 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Allied Ships
      BB Indiana
      BB South Dakota, Shell hits 4
      BB North Carolina
      CA Astoria
      CA Houston
      DD Foote
      DD Bryant
      DD Fletcher
 
Japanese ground losses:
      160 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
         Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 25 disabled
         Engineers: 4 destroyed, 8 disabled
      Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)
 
 
 
Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 13
Port hits 2
Port supply hits 1
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Iwaki at 123,68, Range 18,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      E Mikura, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
      E Daito, Shell hits 15, and is sunk
      E Okinawa, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
      E No.43, Shell hits 18, and is sunk
 
Allied Ships
      DD Kidd
      DD Kimberly
      DD Longshaw
      DD Luce, Shell hits 2
 
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Hachijo-jima at 117,68, Range 12,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      E Kunashiri, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
      E Etoforu, Shell hits 33, and is sunk
      E Manju, Shell hits 22, and is sunk
      E No.27, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
 
Allied Ships
      DD Kidd
      DD Kimberly, Shell hits 1
      DD Longshaw
      DD Luce
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Hachijo-jima at 115,68, Range 18,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      E No.38, Shell hits 19, and is sunk
      E No.44, Shell hits 8,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
      E No.54, Shell hits 8, and is sunk
      E No.130, Shell hits 8,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
      DD Kidd, Shell hits 1
      DD Kimberly, Shell hits 1
      DD Longshaw
      DD Luce
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Fusan  at 103,55
 
Japanese Ships
      xAKL Ozo Maru, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
      SS Plunger
 
 
 
xAKL Ozo Maru is sighted by SS Plunger
SS Plunger attacking xAKL Ozo Maru on the surface
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submarine attack near Fusan  at 103,55
 
Japanese Ships
      xAKL Miyakawa Maru #4, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
 
Allied Ships
      SS Plunger
 
 
 
xAKL Miyakawa Maru #4 is sighted by SS Plunger
SS Plunger attacking xAKL Miyakawa Maru #4 on the surface
 
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
In the meanwhile me and Rader are planning his next trip to Italy and mine own to north america...would be cool to finally meet!!![:D]

Canoerebel · Post by **Canoerebel** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:04 pm

I will be glad to serve as chaperone/designated driver for you and rader. I will be sure to have max policy limits set on all my insurance policies.

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:10 pm

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I will be glad to serve as chaperone/designated driver for you and rader. I will be sure to have max policy limits set on all my insurance policies.

ahhaahh[:D]

Ok, i'll bring my penguin so....

Canoerebel · Post by **Canoerebel** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:17 pm

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Ok, i'll bring my penguin so....

"Your honor, I withdraw the question."

"Too late, counselor," thundered the curmudgeonly old judge. "You made the offer, so you'll have to live with it."

"Then I hereby resign from the bar, your honor. I am departing the country for an isolated and forgotten land. And I'm not leaving a forwarding address."

princep01 · Post by **princep01** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:52 pm

Ser Greyjoy.....perhaps you should seek out whatever bar the submariners favor. After slaying those pestilence E-type AWS vessels, I am sure you'd be most welcome and would not have to buy a beer to get quite drunk in their company. Now that you have sprung your neat trap, you may want to see if it draws a response and set a trap for the responders (say a cruiser force wanting to leap upon your DDs).

I would say that the game far overrates the ability of the Japanese E types. The US lost 52 submarines in WW2 in the Pacific (if memory serves). I seem to recall that a majority of these were lost to AC. While the Japanese late war ASW improved and the E-types proved better than fleet DDs at ASW, I rather doubt that they were as deadly as depicted in the game.

Nemo once mentioned in response to my complaining and whining about them that it had something to do with game code, but I forget the details. Perhaps if he sees this, he might again enlighten us.

princepBolton

paullus99 · Post by **paullus99** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Japanese ASW was uniformly awful during the war. Captains routinely reported allied subs sunk by just forcing them to dive & dropping a depth charge or two....to see this type of killer ASW, especially in light of the allied incorporation of radar into subs by mid-war is absolutely beyond the abilities of the IJN.

crsutton · Post by **crsutton** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:55 pm

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aoffen,

How was it achieved? A careful analysis of the two forces and self-discipline. That's all it takes.

In terms of AARs showing this...
Well there's at least one scenario in which the Allies were on the offensive by March 1942 and re-invaded Malaysia in May 1942 ( causing the Japanese opponent to quit ) and in which the Allied air force was regularly achieving 2 or 3 to 1 kill rates in the air - it even featured a half-dozen B-339 Dutch aces ( which is something you rarely see - especially since most of the B-339 kills were Zeroes and Oscars. ).

I'm aware of a game vs jwilkerson and Nikademus in which the Allies managed to lure them into unfavourable aerial battles and turned the tables very early as well.

CR hasn't achieved aerial superiority in his game but he's not too far off ( although some of that may be a morale failure on his opponents part ). I think a lot of lessons which might be drawn from that AAR aren't actually good lessons to draw but it is an AAR in which Japan hasn't been able to impose its aerial will in '42.

The third example is accessible but should be used with caution. The first two examples are, I believe, good examples of Japan not being able to impose its aerial will. The second example ( Nikademus and jwilkerson ) is, I believe, a Scenario 1 game. The other game is definitely a Scenario 2 game and so features a Japan with all the steroid boosters. IIRC Japanese aerial superiority lasted into the end of February.

I'm sure there are others but those 3 are the AARs I think of when trying to explain how this can be done.

You have yet to convince me. A good Japanese player who will not get trapped and who knows his production will have a great air force through 44. The key to scen #2 is not killing the Japanese air force. (impossible) but getting to Japanese oil production as fast as possible. The Allies player will have a qualitative edge as soon as the hellcat comes on line and can always win where necessary, but Japan can more than match that with numbers and interior lines. The math is simple, if you don't stop the flow of oil, you are just going to grind vs the Japanese air force. There are plenty of examples of good Allied play in the AARs. Most of them concern better Allied players or Japanese players who make critical mistakes.

crsutton · Post by **crsutton** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:01 pm

Every time you sink an E class,I find myself imagining the crew burning in hell...[:@]

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:16 pm

HansBolter,

I believe that the position is simple.

1. Good science looks at ALL of the results and not just at those results which fit one's preconceptions.

2. People here were beginning to post about how Japanese aerial superiority was "inevitable" as it occured in ever Scenario 2 game.

3. I pointed out that it could only be viewed as "inevitable" if you ignored the games in which Japan did NOT maintain aerial superiority past mid-42.

4. I then pointed out that it was bad science/logic/reasoning to state something in the game was inevitable due to poor design/unbalanced scenario etc etc when several players had shown that that very thing wasn't inevitable.

As to me saying Allied players are less than competent. No, I didn't say that. That's you putting words in my mouth. What I said was that Japanese aerial supremacy throughout scenario 2 cannot be inevitable for the simple FACT that in several games the Japanese do NOT HAVE aerial superiority in 1942 in Scenario 2.

Also I'd point out that I pointed out 3 games involving 4 players who were able to wrest aerial superiority from the Japanese.

As to those games being the aberration rather than the norm. Well, obviously they are since in most games players fail to wrest aerial superiority from the Japanese. But we were talking about INEVITABILITY. Yes those games aren't the majority BUT they also disprove this growing mythos that Japanese areial superiority in Scenario 2 is inevitable --- which would soon lead to people crying for changes in the game in order to make Scenario 2 more "fair".

I think a similar situation is running a mile in 4 minutes. Yes that's an aberration but it DOES happen and so someone saying, "No human can ran a mile in less than 4 minutes" would be wrong. Same as someone saying that Japanese aerial superiority in Scenario 2 is inevitable is also wrong. I think that the sheer, obvious, simple fact that people have gotten Allied air superiority in mid-42 in Scenario 2 proves that to be so.

I posted to point out that if 4 players were able to beat the Japanese airforce in 1942 then so could everyone else and thus there was no need for changes to code or scenario design.

What do I think it says about the players involved? Simple, the 4 players who got aerial superiority obviously were doing something which the others aren't ( and in reading those 3 AARs I believe it is absolutely clear that they were doing things rather differently than most and that there is a clear causal link between those differences and their success. Hell, if you track the relative successes of the three games and correlate it with the extent to which they adopted various tactical, operational and strategic positions you can even see that within those 3 games the games in which the players adopted fewer of the more optimal positions ( optimal in terms of defeating the IJAAF and IJNAF in 1942 ) it took longer for them to wrest areial superiority from the Japanese.).

Does this imply poor play on behalf of all other players? Not at all. When you read those 3 AARs and compare how they handled their air forces compared to how others handle them in other AARs the differences become clear and the causal links between those different approaches and the outcomes also become clear. That is why I state that any player on the forum ( or elsewhere ) could defeat the IJAAF and IJNAF in 1942. All they'd have to do is learn the lessons of those AARs.

Also though I believe, and I've stated this before, that the difference between people who have the potential to be very very good at strategy ( be it chess, business, office politics, wargames etc ) and those who will plateau at a different level is usually that those who become very good ruthlessly attempt to deal with objective reality ( including ALL data ) instead of just choosing to select out the data which fits their preferred world view and then over-generalising it to the point of inapplicability.

Bottom line though: It can't be inevitable if some people have successfully resisted it. Not having resisted it doesn't make one a bad player BUT it does mean you might have something to learn from reading the AARs of people who have resisted it. I don't see that as being a denigratory statement. When rader's aircraft production strategy first began to become clear in this AAR it was something I hadn't considered ( I'd always thought of taking India as allowing Japan to "skip" the 1943 planes and go direct to large-scale production of 44 planes ). It didn't fit with my view of how things should proceed but I didn't decide to view it as an aberration and ignore it. I accepted it as a piece of data, thought about it for a couple of minutes and went through the ramifications through to 1945 and decided that it wasn't actually a good strategy for various reasons. Bottom line though - I learnt something from considering it and its floating around in my head as a possible alternative should a suitable situation ever arise. We ALL always have things to learn. I don't think that pointing out that essential truth is denigratory to anyone.

crsutton et al,
I'm not trying to convince anyone really - except michaelm when the time comes that someone demands code changes to prevent this "inevitable and ahistoric" scenario 2 outcome ( which isn't actually inevitable at all ).

I just presented evidence that what was said to be inevitable was actually evitable. You can choose to decide to ignore that or decide it was a special case etc etc. All I will say is that from my point of view ( as a player who got aerial superiority as the Allies in March 1942 ) I don't consider anything I did as being anything special or unusual. It is something any Allied player could do and if they showed a little self-discipline it would work for the vast majority of them vs any Japanese opponent of similar skill. I don't think it is something beyond the ken of any player.

As to your use of statements "Japan can more than match that with numbers and interior lines"... Again I find things which may or may not be possible being presented as fact and used as the foundation for an even wider-ranging statement. I've seen AARs where the Japanese could NOT match Allied planes with numbers and interior lines.

As to the math: Hmm, I think your maths is overly-simplified. OIL doesn't determine whether you grind vs the IJAAF and IJNAF. The intersection between Japanese industrial prioritisation and Allied aerial tactics and operational/strategic use does. With a starting HI of 12,000 HI ( I believe it is even higher in Scenario 2 ) the IJAAF and IJNAF can produce 1,000 fighters per month ( more than enough to swamp the Allies with numbers alone ) with a total outlay of just 1,200 HI per day - 10% of its HI.

I am currently, in my Armaggedon AAR, rebuilding the IJAAF and IJNAF on a total HI of less than 6,500 per day. Hell, I'm even building DDs en masse as well as keeping armaments factories and vehicle factories going. Planes are VERY cheap compared to ships and armaments/vehicles. If a Japanese player accepts a 10% cut in shipbuilding or armaments he can easily fund a 1,000 fighter a month force without having to take Palembang --- and he can fund it indefinitely.

So, really, the conventional wisdom on these things - that Japan needs Palembang, India etc in order to swamp the Allied air forces with numbers is not correct. I analysed it and if the Japanese player is willing to delay 10% of his surface fleet construction ( military or merchant ) for less than a year he can have a 1,000 fighter a month build from 1942 ( increasing to 2,500 fighters easily in 1944 ) without ever needing the OIL from Palembang.

His economy won't crash, he'll still be able to build everything he wants and by having those fighters and delaying the Allied forces for an additional few months because of them ( this is what rader failed to do properly ) he can, when the IJN has to be commited to support the inner perimeter, still have all of those forces available ( since the Allies shoudl have been delayed by at least as long as the delay imposed ).

Bottom line though: An awful lot of the conventional wisdom regarding the inability of Japan to ramp up aerial production without the Java/Sumatran OIL is just plain wrong. Also much of the discussion on the opportunity cost of increased aerial production is based on a limited argument which doesn't take into account the effects of increased production on the strategic layer and the impact of this more favourable strategic situation on the date at which the IJN needs to go on its death ride.

Conventional wisdom, selective abstraction of data, over-generalisation of limited data and a failure to consider the effects of production on other layers ( and vice versa ) have, IMO, rendered a lot of what was said about Scenario 2 OIL vs fighters vs aerial superiority etc to be less than accurate.

Obviously though anyone is free to believe whatever they wish. I amn't trying to convince anyone, except michaelm - since he's actually the only one among us all who can effect a code change and therefore the only relevant person to influence. Objectively michaelm is the fulcrum and the opinions of everyone else only matter because of the effect they have on that fulcrum - you'll note I never spoke up when previous posts which I felt were incomplete re: this military/insutrial/complex ( MIC ) issue were made. That was because I'm perfectly happy for people to have whatever idea they want so long as they're happy having it and enjoying the game ( and also because this forum has a habit of attacking people who suggest an alternative to whatever the group-think has decided upon ) BUT it doesn't result in an unnecessary code change.

Once it looked like steam was building behind a "this is inevitable" bandwagon which may have been brought to michaelm and resulted in a code change I acted - because michaelm's opinion matters and if he got poor information in regarding this being inevitable he might make a sub-optimal decision regarding the game code.

That's the reason I intervened when I did. Personally it doesn't actually matter to me how you play the game or whether or not you ( or anyone else ) thinks Japanese aerial superiority is inevitable --- so long as it doesn't result in a bandwagon and a code change. MY only hope is that however you play it you have fun, cause that's what it is all about after all. Play it however you want, so long as you have fun.

I normally wouldn't post that reasoning but I thought it might help you and others understand why I spoke now and hadn't really previously. Previously there was no danger of a bandwagon effect ( IMO ) and so the erroneous thinking would be confined to certain threads or forum areas. This time though I thought there was a danger of a bandwagon effect which would reach michaelm.

Itdepends · Post by **Itdepends** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:13 am

Nemo I believe that's the first time I've read you post encouraging someone to have fun in the game rather than pursuing the optimal strategy to defeat their enemy- - nice [8D]

However just because something can be done RE and Allied player pursuing the optimal/best strategy for defeating the allied air force- a strategy that it is apparent that the majority of Allied scen 2 players are not pursuing (or at least not successfully) I feel that the ability of Japan to increase airframe production in scen 2 without an ability of the allied to respond in kind (with some kind of trade off) makes the game unbalanced. Still the allied player that choses scen 2 is asking for more of a challenge.

khyberbill · Post by **khyberbill** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:07 am

.perhaps you should seek out whatever bar the submariners favor

As an ex-submariner, I can assure you that most any bar is favored! My favorite was one near Rosie Roads that served a rum and coke for a quarter during happy hour. Ex-nukes on the forum might recall Tony's Depot Club in Vallejo or the Mother Tongue in St. Croix.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:12 am

itdepends,

Well, no-one ever asks me about the "fun" aspect. I'm only ever asked about doctrine or strategy etc. Definitely though the key is to have fun. If I'm in a game where I'm not having fun I'll happily surrender to my opponent, giving him the win, rather than continue to play something which isn't fun even if, technically, I'm in a winning position. I suppose different things are fun for different people. For me it is fun to pick a complex problem having nothing to do with emotions or real life ( since that's too close to the day job ) apart while for others ( like Greyjoy for example ) the fun lies in mashing big gobs of planes, ships and men together and seeing stuff burn [8D]. He's having a blast, the forum's having a blast so it's all good. It isn't the most strategically perfect play on the planet but, sometimes its fun to just watch stuff blow up you know? We all have an atavistic side [:D]

As re: the point regarding the inability of the Allies to alter production. Actually I agree with you. I believe some of the newer mods due out are using some of the ideas I mooted about 1 year to 18 months ago about placing some Allied aircraft production on-map in particular "out of bounds" bases which would allow Allied players to increase production of certain plane types but only by paying the opportunity cost of commiting shipping, supplies etc to supplying those bases. So long as there's an opportunity cost and an inability to just produce as much of everything as they want then I think varied Allied production is a good thing. I think we're largely in agreement on that. I just don't think that without varied Allied production Japanese aerial superiority is "inevitable" at all.

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:51 pm

Sep 26, 27 1944
 
A damned mistake costed me 4 CVEs...[X(]...yesterday night my GF (Valentina) decided it was wise to spend the night by my appartment...so we went out with friends and when we came back i had the turn to play...i placed her on the sofa and asked her (politely) to stay quiet, to watch tv, and to leave me alone for an hour... it lasted less than 20 min...that she started to complain (That game is more important to you than me...you are obsessed by that game...who gives a **** about a canadian engineer who lives on the other side of the globe etc etc etc...bla bla blah....)...so i had to rush the orders and probably i messed up a bit...
 
...however...a CVE TF managed to park itself at Aikita...without CAP...a part from 15 leakers from Hakodate....result? 4 CVEs hit by 800kg bombs....4 CVE less... [:@]
 
Ok...anyway...we keep on bombing Hachinoe, Ominato, Aikita, Aomori...daily...but he has so many engineers, so many forts and so many CD guns that i cannot shut any of those bases...and so forts keep on being built...[:o]
 
For what concerns the whole discussion about Scen 2, Jap air production etc.... i firmly believe that I did a good job in killing Japanese air army in air to air contests...however it doesn't matter much...they just keep on coming...and after 2 months since i stopped the strat bombing campaign, his a/c industry has been already repaired...i had destroyed more than 800 a/c industry points...my recon tells me now that at least 400 of those points have already been repaired....and i do think we're gonna see KI-201s and Shidens by Jan 1945....at least 500 of them monthly....
 
You say "Go on and plaster those industries now"... i answer: with What!? I mean...i have less than 400 4Es left and with the new patch with CAP tuning how am i supposed to attack bases defended by more than 1000 enemy fighters (frank-Rs, KI-83s, and several others late model wonders) ?!? You know what this mean in terms of escort losses? Do you remember the Tokyo Raid??? (Still with the old patch)....i lost nearly 400 Hellcats in a single turn... I think i'll have to play defensively for the rest of the war untill mid-september 1945 at least...till that moment i'll be inferior both in numbers and in quality...
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hachinohe at 118,55 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
 
8 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Allied Ships
      BB Mississippi
      BB Idaho
      BB Colorado
      CA Chester
      CA Northampton
      CA Indianapolis
 
Japanese ground losses:
      148 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
         Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 36 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
      Guns lost 13 (1 destroyed, 12 disabled)
 
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hirosaki/Aomori at 118,54
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed on ground
 
Allied Ships
      BB New Mexico
      CA London
      CA Australia
      CA San Francisco
 
Japanese ground losses:
      124 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
         Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
 
 
 
Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 5
Port hits 1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Akita at 117,55
 
Allied Ships
      BB Howe
      BB Indiana
      BB South Dakota
      BB North Carolina
      CA Astoria
      CA Houston
 
Japanese ground losses:
      234 casualties reported
         Squads: 1 destroyed, 14 disabled
         Non Combat: 12 destroyed, 45 disabled
         Engineers: 4 destroyed, 4 disabled
      Guns lost 18 (8 destroyed, 10 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 6 (3 destroyed, 3 disabled)
 
 
 
Airbase hits 8
Runway hits 14
Port hits 1
Port supply hits 1
 
BB 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Akita at 117,55
 
Weather in hex: Severe storms
 
Raid detected at 52 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      D4Y4 Judy x 25
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Thunderbolt I x 1
      P-38L Lightning x 8
      P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 13
      P-51B Mustang x 5
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      D4Y4 Judy: 5 destroyed, 3 damaged
 
No Allied losses
 
Allied Ships
      CVE Petrof Bay, Bomb hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage[:o]
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       5 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
       4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
 
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVE Petrof Bay
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Akita at 117,55
 
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
 
Raid detected at 98 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 29 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      D4Y4 Judy x 14
 
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      D4Y4 Judy: 6 damaged
      D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
 
Allied Ships
      CVE Takanis Bay, Bomb hits 1,  heavy fires
      CVE Makassar Strait
      CVE Salamaua, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
      CVE Lunga Point, Bomb hits 1,  on fire
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       5 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
       8 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000'
               Naval Attack:  1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
 
Fuel storage explosion on CVE Takanis Bay
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring CVE Salamaua
 
 

crsutton · Post by **crsutton** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:22 pm

Well, I think it has been established that part of the problem is the extraordinary early introduction of Rader's modern plane types. From what I hear, this is an unusual event and will not happen to most AFBs. However, as to the numbers being produced, I can't offer a solution.

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:23 pm

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I think it has been established that part of the problem is the extraordinary early introduction of Rader's modern plane types. From what I hear, this is an unusual event and will not happen to most AFBs. However, as to the numbers being produced, I can't offer a solution.

From my calculations Rader is producing nearly 1900 planes/monthly...

However guys...we got another damned bloody nose...
We bombed Hachinoe today... and we suffered 56 planes shot down by flak and more 50 due to operational losses after being damaged by his AAs.... it has become impossible... And he was complaining about ground bombing being borked?!?!?!?![:-]

He sent several 2-DDs TFs to try to interfere with my naval bombings of Hachinoe...luckly my DDs managed to stop them before they could come any closer and my Avengers dealt with them the day after near Sendai...

However this is becoming a battle of attrition that is leading me nowhere...:-/

Gotta find a solution...

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:27 pm

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Sep 28, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Sendai at 118,58, Range 8,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      DD Kiyonami
      DD Okinami, Shell hits 1
 
Allied Ships
      DD Newcomb
      DD Picking, Shell hits 1
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Hakodate , at 119,53
 
Weather in hex: Light rain
 
Raid detected at 22 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-49-IIb Helen x 7
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      P-61A Black Widow x 33
      P-70 Havoc x 6
      P-70A-1 Havoc x 11
      F6F-3N Hellcat x 51
      F6F-5N Hellcat x 9
      F4U-2 Corsair x 10
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed
      Ki-49-IIb Helen: 1 destroyed by flak
 
No Allied losses
 
  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hachinohe at 118,55 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
 
13 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Allied Ships
      BB Mississippi
      BB Idaho
      BB Colorado
      CA Chester
      CA Northampton
      CA Indianapolis
 
Japanese ground losses:
      112 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
         Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 21 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hachinohe at 118,55 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
 
4 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.
 
Allied Ships
      BB New Mexico
      CA London
      CA Australia
      CA San Francisco
 
Japanese ground losses:
      60 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
         Non Combat: 14 destroyed, 12 disabled
         Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
      Guns lost 12 (7 destroyed, 5 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 9 (6 destroyed, 3 disabled)
 
 
 
Manpower hits 1
Resources hits 2
Fires 1215
Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 8
Port hits 9
Port fuel hits 1
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Hachinohe at 118,55
 
Japanese aircraft
      no flights
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      J1N1-C Irving: 1 damaged
 
Allied Ships
      BB Richelieu
      BB Alabama
      BB Massachusetts
      CA Salt Lake City
 
Japanese ground losses:
      316 casualties reported
         Squads: 1 destroyed, 23 disabled
         Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
         Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
      Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)
 
 
 
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 9
Port fuel hits 3
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Time Surface Combat, near Sendai at 119,58, Range 18,000 Yards
 
Japanese Ships
      DD Akishimo
      DD Asashio, Shell hits 2,  on fire
 
Allied Ships
      DD Newcomb
      DD Picking
 
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hachinohe , at 118,55
 
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
 
Raid detected at 45 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      N1K1-J George x 7
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Corsair II x 66
      Spitfire VIII x 9
 
 
Japanese aircraft losses
      N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Corsair II: 1 destroyed
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sendai at 118,58
 
Weather in hex: Partial cloud
 
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes
 
 
Allied aircraft
      FM-2 Wildcat x 4
      F6F-3 Hellcat x 7
      TBM-1C Avenger x 7
 
 
No Allied losses
 
Japanese Ships
      DD Kiyonami, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
      DD Okinami
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
       7 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Hachinohe , at 118,55
 
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
 
Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Corsair II x 44
      Hellcat I x 4
      Beaufort I x 12
      Liberator II x 15
      Liberator B.VI x 33
      Thunderbolt I x 36
      Wellington Ic x 20
      Wellington B.X x 28
      Wellington GR.XIII x 3
      B-24D1 Liberator x 10
      B-24J Liberator x 156
      B-25D1 Mitchell x 72
      B-25H Mitchell x 51
      B-25J1 Mitchell x 15
      B-29-1 Superfort x 111
      P-38J Lightning x 22
      P-38L Lightning x 70
      P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 48
      P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 129
      P-51B Mustang x 47
      FM-2 Wildcat x 212
      F4U-1D Corsair x 10
      PB4Y-1 Liberator x 55
      PB4Y-2 Privateer x 12
      PBJ-1D Mitchell x 58
      PV-1 Ventura x 27
 
 
Allied aircraft losses
      Beaufort I: 3 damaged
      Beaufort I: 1 destroyed by flak
      Liberator II: 6 damaged
      Liberator B.VI: 24 damaged
      Liberator B.VI: 2 destroyed by flak
      Wellington Ic: 15 damaged
      Wellington Ic: 1 destroyed by flak
      Wellington B.X: 23 damaged
      Wellington B.X: 1 destroyed by flak
      Wellington GR.XIII: 3 damaged
      B-24D1 Liberator: 5 damaged
      B-24J Liberator: 14 damaged
      B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
      B-25D1 Mitchell: 29 damaged
      B-25D1 Mitchell: 3 destroyed by flak
      B-25H Mitchell: 27 damaged
      B-25H Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
      B-25J1 Mitchell: 3 damaged
      B-25J1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed by flak
      B-29-1 Superfort: 61 damaged
      B-29-1 Superfort: 5 destroyed by flak
      PB4Y-1 Liberator: 22 damaged
      PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 destroyed by flak
      PB4Y-2 Privateer: 7 damaged
      PBJ-1D Mitchell: 22 damaged
      PBJ-1D Mitchell: 4 destroyed by flak
      PV-1 Ventura: 13 damaged
      PV-1 Ventura: 2 destroyed by flak
 
Japanese ground losses:
      549 casualties reported
         Squads: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
         Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 34 disabled
         Engineers: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
      Guns lost 39 (1 destroyed, 38 disabled)
 
 
 
Port hits 19
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 2
 
 
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking Nampo Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 27th Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 51st Base Force ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 52nd Division ...
Also attacking 2nd Guards Division ...
Also attacking 32nd Division ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 4th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 33rd Division ...
Also attacking Kanto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 116th Division ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 72nd Division ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 86th Division ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 69th Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 61st Infantry Brigade ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 66th Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Nampo Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 3rd Mobile Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking Nampo Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 27th Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 52nd Division ...
Also attacking 2nd Guards Division ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 4th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 33rd Division ...
Also attacking 116th Division ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Nampo Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 1st Mobile Infantry Regiment ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 51st Base Force ...
Also attacking 3rd IJN Special Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 52nd Division ...
Also attacking 32nd Division ...
Also attacking 4th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 116th Division ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking 2nd Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Base Force ...
Also attacking Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking Nampo Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 27th Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 52nd Division ...
Also attacking 2nd Guards Division ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking 4th Guards Division ...
Also attacking 33rd Division ...
Also attacking 116th Division ...
Also attacking 31st Special Base Force ...
Also attacking 14th Base Force ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking Hachinohe  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking Kure 7th SNLF ...
Also attacking Combined 8th SNLF  ...
Also attacking 7th Base Force ...
Also attacking Nansei Shoto JNAF Base Force ...
 
 
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Ominato at 120,56
 
Weather in hex: Light rain
 
Raid detected at 56 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes
 
Japanese aircraft
      Ki-83 x 1
 
 
 
Allied aircraft
      Hellcat I x 11
      Thunderbolt I x 6
      FM-2 Wildcat x 38
      TBM-1C Avenger x 34
 
 
No Japanese losses
 
Allied aircraft losses
      TBM-1C Avenger: 5 damaged
 
Japanese Ships
      DD Akishimo
      DD Asashio, Torpedo hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
 
 
 
Aircraft Attacking:
      17 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
      17 x TBM-1C Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
               Naval Attack:  1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
 
CAP engaged:
23rd I.F.Chutai with Ki-83 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
      0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
      Group patrol altitude is 20000
      Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
 
 
 

Cap Mandrake · Post by **Cap Mandrake** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:30 pm

..i placed her on the sofa and asked her (politely) to stay quiet, to watch tv, and to leave me alone for an hour...

D'oh! That was NEVER going to work. And it wasn't just a bad die roll either.

Next time, hide the laptop in the bathroom and then feign gastrointestinal distress. Just remember to make a moaning sound every 10 minutes or so.

GreyJoy · Post by **GreyJoy** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:33 pm

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

..i placed her on the sofa and asked her (politely) to stay quiet, to watch tv, and to leave me alone for an hour...

D'oh! That was NEVER going to work. And it wasn't just a bad die roll either.

Next time, hide the laptop in the bathroom and then feign gastrointestinal distress. Just remember to make a moaning sound every 10 minutes or so.

Oh done that several times...it only works few times...then she eats the bait and she understands something is not working properly...

Once...in september...was a sunday morning...i closed myself in the restroom with my laptop...after 20 minutes i came out and she simply has left my appartment in the worst possible mood ever[:D]

princep01 · Post by **princep01** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:35 pm

Hummmm...Valentina....a most beautiful name for a most beautiful woman, I am sure. I am laughing out loud about the 20 minute comment. Oh Greyjoy, my young jedi friend, they do tend to want to own you:). That is a very funny.

She owes you 4 small aircraft carriers. I would take a moment between now and the next meeting to generate a "bill" to hand her. Take one step back upon handing her such a bill. A slap may be forthcoming:).

The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

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