1.05.59 rule changes more German nerfs?

[Flaviusx]

Nice editing job there, Pelton. Try reading the paragraph in full. You're being willfuly obtuse and deliberately misunderstanding my meaning.

[Joel Billings]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Looks fair to be honest, though that will obviously depend on your standpoint.

I have three games on the go at the moment

April '42 as Soviet (got creamed by March Madness)
T6 joint game
T92 as axis (slow game that I took over that has been going since 1.04)

Realistically, they all need to restart, don't they?

I don't think the T6 join game needs a restart. The rule changes have only a marginal impact on the first 6 turns, and you will have them all going forward. The only things you will be missing are the data changes. Although we like to think the new data is always better, 6 turns of a joint game could be a serious time investment. If it were me, I'd keep going with the old data (but then I played a team game of the original boardgame War in the East for 5 months realtime before finding out that SPI had made major changes, so I appreciate the situation). The April 42 game situation is much tougher since the recent changes mostly hurt the Soviets after Spring 42 while hurting the Germans some before then. It's really impossible to comment on the T92 game. All three could be continued with the new version, although the April 42 game is going to be tougher on the Soviets than a new game.

[KamilS]

There are few nice tweaks, but they do not answer most important problems - practically non-existent logistics, too efficient high ROF elements plus simplistic national morale system.


For me so called "march madness" is logical consequence of the fact that neither of the sides have to fight. During summer of '41 Soviet do not have to defend too much (it is too easy to evacuate industry, plus losing cities is not significant), situation is similar during blizzard - Germans run away and save their army. Both sides are too numerous, but quality advantage favours Germans.

By logic of mechanics situation is very different in June - Soviet build their strength much faster then Germans and I am not sure if without March counter-offensive Germans will be able to mount summer offensive that can damage Red Army - gaining land is of little significance.



Soviet command nerf looks terrifying, especially with ridiculously high AP cost of corps reassignments.

It will weaken Soviet considerably.




I think these changes will lower dynamics of fighting in '42. Germans will be less able to attack, but it will take more time to mount serious offensive by Red Army. So both sides will grow grow and grow while front remain static.

I hope I am wrong.

[sj80]

I think Kamil and Pelton are right. 1942 will become much more static now. [:(]
I fear this patch is a half step backwards in WITE "evolution".

It will become now much more important to run as Axis backwards during blizzard to save morale and manpower. Without a snow offensive during winter 1942 the Sovjet strength and the fort levels will increase much. Axis offensive actions in 1942 will become weaker now.
I'm really waiting for the patch that prevents Axis retreats during blizzard with high equipment losses. I think it's only a matter of time until the last loophole for the Axis player is closed.
Pelton is also right with naming the major problem: Germany is bound to historic results, Sovjets are free. It seems there are too few Axis fanboys and too many Sovjet fanboys out there. [:(]

sj80

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

It's not going to be WWI, Pelton. And March Madness certainly bore no relation to WWII. This is the part you're refusing to get.

Thats 100% your personal option.

An offensive is 100% withen historical limits.

Your problem is like "most" of the guys at 2by3 they 100% want the German side to be stuck in a historical box. This just a fact backed up be patch after patch of German nerfs.

Your option is a joke as it is totally withen the limits of history if the German planned ahead they could have easly had a snow Offensive.

Your only intereted in the whats if for the Russian side, this is clear to everyone. Any what if for the Germans is quickly KIA by the staff at 2by3.

Then you cant under stand why sales blow and the forums have been basicly dead other then a few holdovers.

Any patch you have liked has been a disaster as this one is.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

There are few nice tweaks, but they do not answer most important problems - practically non-existent logistics, too efficient high ROF elements plus simplistic national morale system.


For me so called "march madness" is logical consequence of the fact that neither of the sides have to fight. During summer of '41 Soviet do not have to defend too much (it is too easy to evacuate industry, plus losing cities is not significant), situation is similar during blizzard - Germans run away and save their army. Both sides are too numerous, but quality advantage favours Germans.

By logic of mechanics situation is very different in June - Soviet build their strength much faster then Germans and I am not sure if without March counter-offensive Germans will be able to mount summer offensive that can damage Red Army - gaining land is of little significance.



Soviet command nerf looks terrifying, especially with ridiculously high AP cost of corps reassignments.

It will weaken Soviet considerably.




I think these changes will lower dynamics of fighting in '42. Germans will be less able to attack, but it will take more time to mount serious offensive by Red Army. So both sides will grow grow and grow while front remain static.

I hope I am wrong.

The sad part is your 100% right Kamil. You alrdy know what the outcome is based on your exp.

This patch is simply a Red fanboy patch.

We have been patched back to 1.04, here we go again with the WWI crap on the eastern front. Flaviusx got his wish.

Good for him bad for the player base.

[paullus99]

Cripes Pelton - want some whine with your cheese????

Play the damn game, come back with real results and then we can talk - until then, I'm back to the campaign to see what effect these have for real, as opposed to your bitching and moaning.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: sj80

I think Kamil and Pelton are right. 1942 will become much more static now. [:(]
I fear this patch is a half step backwards in WITE "evolution".

It will become now much more important to run as Axis backwards during blizzard to save morale and manpower. Without a snow offensive during winter 1942 the Sovjet strength and the fort levels will increase much. Axis offensive actions in 1942 will become weaker now.
I'm really waiting for the patch that prevents Axis retreats during blizzard with high equipment losses. I think it's only a matter of time until the last loophole for the Axis player is closed.
Pelton is also right with naming the major problem: Germany is bound to historic results, Sovjets are free. It seems there are too few Axis fanboys and too many Sovjet fanboys out there. [:(]

sj80

Its amazing to me how the player base can see this horrible patch for what it is and 2by3 is blind to this Red Fanboy madness that is never ending patch after patch.

Again not all the "team" likes this crappy fanboy patch. not sure they will be willing to stick their neckout. Look how long it took to get that joke of a 1v1=2v1 rule changed.

[elmo3]

ORIGINAL: Kamil

There are few nice tweaks, but they do not answer most important problems - practically non-existent logistics, too efficient high ROF elements plus simplistic national morale system.

...

It's been said elsewhere but you're not going to see major parts of the game redesigned at this point. What you will see are tweaks as the devs feel the need, based on game results not forum trolling (I'm not talking about you), and bug/data fixes as they are reported and confirmed.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Cripes Pelton - want some whine with your cheese????

Play the damn game, come back with real results and then we can talk - until then, I'm back to the campaign to see what effect these have for real, as opposed to your bitching and moaning.

Facts baby facts, stop the personal attacks and stay on topic. but then again why would you start now.

Flaviusx said"You alrdy see that 1942 will be a stalemate, The Soviets will be in a much better position to consolidate their blizzard gains -- "

1. be bigger then 1.05 by 1.25 million men
2. have 4 months to build forts
3. be spending their AP's to build new armys and not be rebuilding armys before June 1942.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Kamil

There are few nice tweaks, but they do not answer most important problems - practically non-existent logistics, too efficient high ROF elements plus simplistic national morale system.

...

It's been said elsewhere but you're not going to see major parts of the game redesigned at this point. What you will see are tweaks as the devs feel the need, based on game results not forum trolling (I'm not talking about you), and bug/data fixes as they are reported and confirmed.

Yes true I have played 19 games son unlike you who is here to troll for 2by3

Play more troll less is all I have to say to you.

Have you even played this game? If so point out an AAR if not troll less and play more.

[paullus99]

Pelton - the 2by3 Shill gambit is getting old too - you've made some good points in the past, but seriously, this is getting old. How about canning the attitude (nobody like a brat) and how about being constructive for a change.

In the real world, people with an attitude like yours don't get very far....

[barbarrossa]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: elmo3

ORIGINAL: Kamil

There are few nice tweaks, but they do not answer most important problems - practically non-existent logistics, too efficient high ROF elements plus simplistic national morale system.

...

It's been said elsewhere but you're not going to see major parts of the game redesigned at this point. What you will see are tweaks as the devs feel the need, based on game results not forum trolling (I'm not talking about you), and bug/data fixes as they are reported and confirmed.

Yes true I have played 19 games son unlike you who is here to troll for 2by3

Play more troll less is all I have to say to you.

Have you even played this game? If so point out an AAR if not troll less and play more.

You are such a gem. You know that?

[randallw]

It's both annoying, and amusing, that some of what he says conflicts with itself.

[JAMiAM]

In the shuffling madness
Of the locomotive breath
Runs the all time loser
Headlong to his death

Oh, he feels the piston scraping
Steam breaking on his brow

Old Charlie stole the handle
And the train, it won't stop going
No way to slow down
Oh, oh

He sees his children jumping off
At stations one by one
His woman and his best friend
In bed an' having fun

Oh, he's crawling down the corridor
On his hands and knees

Old Charlie stole the handle
And the train, it won't stop going
No way to slow down
Yeah, yeah

He hears the silence howling
And catches angels as they fall
And the all time winner
Has got him by the balls

Oh, he picks up Gideon's Bible
Open at page one

I thank God, he stole the handle
And the train, it won't stop going
No way to slow down

No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Pelton - IMO you won't be happy with WitE until the Axis can stomp all over Russia, they can build oodles of everything, have no historical limitations, have flying Panzers that can travels 1000's of miles continuously away from Railheads etc. My suggestion is you use the editor to make your version of the game and be happy with it.

Anyone who has read Pelton's stuff will have taken note that he has made suggestions to IMPROVE the Russian side (He was one of the first to call for a bump in the armaments multiplier after a new patch dropped it by a lot). This is no different than Flav and ComradeP who have made good suggestions for the Germans, although they are more associated with the "Russian side". While Pelton can sometimes get a bit passionate about the topic of the game, it would be a mistake to assume he wants the "I win" button. If you look at his record, he wins pretty regularly as it is.

As far as my view on this patch, I think it is a step back.

The Russians now are going to probably be able to continue to attack well into February if not all the way to the end of February. Right now, they start looking to wind it down the first part of February and certainly by the middle of the month, most Russian offensives are done. Nothing wrong, but the Russians now know the Germans probably can't do anything to them if they extend themselves.

I understand the desire to nerf the March counter offensives to tone them down some. Part of the issue is not the fact that the Germans are busy attacking, but that they have so much mobility to go with it. Do I have a suggested fix for it? Not really.

The Soviet command nerf is big. It will cause the Russians to either overload commands or have more poorer commanders in the line. In addition, the Russian "superstar" commanders will have fewer troops under their command and that will absolutely make a huge difference.

With the front being more inactive, it will give the Russians a chance to come up with more defense in depth as they will be able to get more fortifications into the field during the downtime and still build up to full AP's. In addition, the Russians will have more time to deploy new troops and get them better trained by the time the big fighting starts. While Flav makes a good point about the overall limit to the size of the Russian army, the Russians will have more time to recover from a disasterous 1941 and also make good their losses during the winter.

I have to say the patches and the constant massive changes they are triggering in the game have turned me off to the game to a point. I don't have any active games going at this time and I won't be starting one under this patch either, although I will be watching AAR's, etc to see how things go. One of the biggest turnoffs for me in this game has been the fact that it is either WW1 style or one side or the other gets the track shoes on and both armies spend far more time running than fighting.

[KamilS]

Klydon

One of the biggest turnoffs for me in this game has been the fact that it is either WW1 style or one side or the other gets the track shoes on and both armies spend far more time running than fighting.

I agree.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Cripes Pelton - want some whine with your cheese????

Play the damn game, come back with real results and then we can talk - until then, I'm back to the campaign to see what effect these have for real, as opposed to your bitching and moaning.

Facts baby facts, stop the personal attacks and stay on topic. but then again why would you start now.

Flaviusx said"You alrdy see that 1942 will be a stalemate, The Soviets will be in a much better position to consolidate their blizzard gains -- "

1. be bigger then 1.05 by 1.25 million men
2. have 4 months to build forts
3. be spending their AP's to build new armys and not be rebuilding armys before June 1942.

Pelton. Please stop misquoting me. I have said no such thing. I do not in fact believe any such thing. This just a product of your fevered imagination and feeble copy editing skills.

[darbycmcd]

My jeebus, the gnashing of teeth in here. Really look what the rule does. Four (4!!!!) turns during non-random weather, the Germans will be less able to commit offensive operations, (which is actually more historical not that any of the 'world is ending' people seem to care about historical accuracy). During this time the Soviets will, yes, be able to replace losses and build up forces, but will NOT be able to undertake massive fort build-up because of the slow rate of construction during snow/mud (which covers both months, March and April, in question). So how much will that really, really, change the spring offensive operations for the Germans? really. pretty much not much if you ask me. You might have to do what the Germans did in the actual war (gasp, could it be!!!???!!!) and stand down a large portion of the front to concentrate on getting results in a weak sector. If the Soviet player guesses right, you have problems, if he guesses wrong, you have Fall Blau. Why is that so terrible?
Complaining BEFORE PLAYING A SINGLE TURN OF THE NEW PATCH is (fill in your favorite derisive comment here).

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

The Russians now are going to probably be able to continue to attack well into February if not all the way to the end of February. Right now, they start looking to wind it down the first part of February and certainly by the middle of the month, most Russian offensives are done. Nothing wrong, but the Russians now know the Germans probably can't do anything to them if they extend themselves.

And you know what, that's what happened in real life too. The Soviet Union didn't stop attacking in early February and start making preparation for March Madness -- which never in fact happened in real life. (The real life March madness happened in March...of 1943. March 1942 was a mutual exhaustion society.)

I'm gobsmacked by the number of people here who are defending this March stuff. It's blatantly ahistorical. Nobody should be surprised to see attempt to bring it in line. It is every bit as indefensible as the 1.04 Maginot line business -- nor does getting rid of it mean that we are going back to 1.04. This isn't a binary solution, folks.