1.05.59 rule changes more German nerfs?

[2ndACR]

I have read all of the posts in this thread, I have been away for awhile but still playing the AI, I have been watching alot of the AAR's and have to agree with Klydon, March Madness is done with basically 20 FRESH, full strength, high morale units that spent the entire winter back home with their families and not getting butchered by the blizzard or the Russians. Yet those troops faced Russians who HAD been fighting all winter long. So they got slaughtered.

I have not played the new patch yet, so will defer harsh judgement until I have. As one who went thru the release blizzard massacres, the TOE upgrade bug from hell, 1.04 and the forts from hell, I really hope this patch does not return the game back to WW1 in the east.

I do feel that trying to stop the March madness with this code across the board is a mistake though. I can see the rule if it only concerned troops outside the initial German start lines as of say Feb 15 42 or so. But the German players have worked really hard to come up with ways to survive the blizzard and such but also give them an iron fist come spring. Now that has been removed from their play book.

I have stated before that I am not one of the "it did not happen in history, so cannot happen here types". If I want history, I will read a book. I think the German players hands are tied quite enough already. Cannot create support units, cannot decide what unit withdraws, cannot spend AP's to winterize units prior to winter, cannot control armor assignments within reason even though they might have 1000 tanks in the pool (note I said within reason, as fun as it would be, I don't want 300 Tigers in a division), forced to suffer historical morale loss no matter the situation due to dates, forced TOE changes per history even though the German may be doing much better, forced withdraws of units that got mauled during history yet might be full strength in our game, no control over when a unit TOE upgrades or who (on this date everyone starts changing) instead of allowing the German to spend AP's to keep the unit a certain TOE setup.

Sorry for the last rant, but I really, really hate having my hands tied.

[JKLilly]

Am I missing something? Look at Pelton's self-published record, playing as Axis presumably. And you want the rules readjusted to favor axis?

[sanderz]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
I think the German players hands are tied quite enough already. Cannot create support units, cannot decide what unit withdraws, cannot spend AP's to winterize units prior to winter, cannot control armor assignments within reason even though they might have 1000 tanks in the pool (note I said within reason, as fun as it would be, I don't want 300 Tigers in a division), forced to suffer historical morale loss no matter the situation due to dates, forced TOE changes per history even though the German may be doing much better, forced withdraws of units that got mauled during history yet might be full strength in our game, no control over when a unit TOE upgrades or who (on this date everyone starts changing) instead of allowing the German to spend AP's to keep the unit a certain TOE setup.

Sorry for the last rant, but I really, really hate having my hands tied.

Sums up my thoughts exactly

[DesertedFox]

Sounds like fighting windmills. One question would be what Pelton's wishes for an ideal design along his wishes would be?

Honestly, apart from Pelton and his bum buddies, who cares?

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: Klydon

ORIGINAL: Schmart

ORIGINAL: Pelton

During march most germans pocket 20 to 30 units on average. which is 325ish AP points. Thats your math not mine.

This will require the Russian player to spend the next 6ish turn buying back units. But before then its clear weather and I can pocket 10 to 15 more again keeping the size of the russian machine in check and the ap's low as per your email

Plus the german player can push past the forts.

now we have your nerf bat patch 1.06

None of this is possible now.

Can you please refer us to the history book(s) that details this historical German ability to pocket 30 Russian divisions in March 1942?

Of course the Germans could not pocket Russian divisions in March of 1942 historically.

Just to nitpick, they did manage to pocket and destroy 2 Armies in January 42 around Rhzev with 3 fresh Divisions from France and the burnt out units at hand.

Also, second the point about excessive mobility being one of the problems, which like many issues, has it's origin in a logistics system that's out of whack.

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
I'm gobsmacked by the number of people here who are defending this March stuff. It's blatantly ahistorical. Nobody should be surprised to see attempt to bring it in line. It is every bit as indefensible as the 1.04 Maginot line business -- nor does getting rid of it mean that we are going back to 1.04. This isn't a binary solution, folks.

Flaviusx, first a big premise: thank you and the devs team for this patch. Thank you all for the outstanding support.
It's not about defending march madness. I do not like the solution to this problem ("artificial" reduction of German units CV's).
I cannot see an historical reason to this (why only the germans? Why only in 1941?)

[Toby42]

Pelton is becoming very tiring! Time for the "Green" button....

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
At any rate, I'm going to play it out and see how it works out. I have some ideas on how to manage the change. It's going to be a real pain in the neck, but it's not a game killer imo, if you're willing to accept that perfect C&C just isn't going to happen all the time.

Are you talking about new games or on-going games? I don't have a problem with the changes for new games, but it sure seems like a game killer for on-going games--I would have to devote every AP for the rest of the war to creating new HQs and transferring units from one HQ to another, in the meantime all of my armies would be crippled because they would be almost 100% overloaded...

2x3's complete lack of regard for players that have invested so much time beta-testing, I mean playing, their game really turns me off.

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

76mm, I am truly sorry for the pain the patch is inflicting on your game and others like it. The command change was the one item we knew was going to be very painful to current players because they had no time to adjust to it (unlike a new game, or one still in 1941). For cases like this we recommend that you consider keeping two copies of WitE on your system. The older version can be used to finish out the current game, while the newer version could be used for new games. Studying the later war scenarios it became obvious we missed a major factor with the size of the Soviet Armies, and we wanted to make the adjustment now while we were also fixing Stavka and making the other changes. All in all we think the patch is fairly balanced, but it will tend to net out as a hit to the Germans early, and then net out hitting the Soviets later on. We just didn't see a way of avoiding this issue. Fewer, large Soviet armies run only by the best Soviet leaders just wasn't right. We are at the point where we don't want to be making a lot of rule changes going forward, but will try to keep an eye on how the game is doing and try to make more subtle corrections as needed. Having worked on the Don to the Danube scenarios, we've had a better view of some of the later war issues and we think the biggest changes are behind us.

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

I just discovered the same problem in our team game Za Rodinu. I think the change is good, and in our case the effect will be manageable, but it still hurts to pay APs to rearrange the command structure when every AP is needed to build new units. Just a thought, a one time AP grant when first starting an old game saved on an earlier version might have solved the problem, but maybe that wasn't possible. But in cases as 76mm, couldn't you consider doctoring his save file and giving him an AP compensation? Provided Ketza agrees of course.

Guys, I think that is is quite feasible and possible to have old EXE (with old rules) together with new EXE (with new rules) at the same time!


How to do that?


Simple!


Just copy the previous WitE v1.05.53 "WarInTheEast.exe" to "WarInTheEast-53.exe" (or whatever you like) and then install the latest WitE v1.05.59!

This way you will have two EXEs in your WitE folder and you can use old EXE for games in progress (the new data settings are not applicable to existing old games anyway) and new EXE for new games!



Leo "Apollo11"

[pompack]

This thread makes fascinating reading: Four hours after a very major patch is posted, people decide that the game is not only broken but the breakage was the willful result of a dark conspiracy. People can glance at (certainly not read) a summary of the changes and argue the effects with testers who have spent months testing the changes.

Personally I have no opinion on the effects of the changes and I won’t until I at least try playing the game for a few days. I feel I won’t have any valuable opinions until I have played both sides in 41, 42, 43 and 44. This is an extraordinarily complex game; while there are a number of issues with the 1.05.53 version, I still enjoyed the game. I am sure I will have issues with the 1.05.59 version as well, but I trust I will still enjoy the game.

For any that I have offended, please forgive me. While I play this game, I rarely read postings in this forum and doing so produced a shock that brought on this urge to rant. I shall now return my usual haunts.

[vinnie71]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I have read all of the posts in this thread, I have been away for awhile but still playing the AI, I have been watching alot of the AAR's and have to agree with Klydon, March Madness is done with basically 20 FRESH, full strength, high morale units that spent the entire winter back home with their families and not getting butchered by the blizzard or the Russians. Yet those troops faced Russians who HAD been fighting all winter long. So they got slaughtered.

I have not played the new patch yet, so will defer harsh judgement until I have. As one who went thru the release blizzard massacres, the TOE upgrade bug from hell, 1.04 and the forts from hell, I really hope this patch does not return the game back to WW1 in the east.

I do feel that trying to stop the March madness with this code across the board is a mistake though. I can see the rule if it only concerned troops outside the initial German start lines as of say Feb 15 42 or so. But the German players have worked really hard to come up with ways to survive the blizzard and such but also give them an iron fist come spring. Now that has been removed from their play book.

I have stated before that I am not one of the "it did not happen in history, so cannot happen here types". If I want history, I will read a book. I think the German players hands are tied quite enough already. Cannot create support units, cannot decide what unit withdraws, cannot spend AP's to winterize units prior to winter, cannot control armor assignments within reason even though they might have 1000 tanks in the pool (note I said within reason, as fun as it would be, I don't want 300 Tigers in a division), forced to suffer historical morale loss no matter the situation due to dates, forced TOE changes per history even though the German may be doing much better, forced withdraws of units that got mauled during history yet might be full strength in our game, no control over when a unit TOE upgrades or who (on this date everyone starts changing) instead of allowing the German to spend AP's to keep the unit a certain TOE setup.

Sorry for the last rant, but I really, really hate having my hands tied.

One has to admit that 2ndACR has hit the nail on the head. Frankly I believe that until some of these issues are settled especially the morale and late war TOE 'upgrades' are settled, it will be difficult to really play as Axis to win in the long run. To the list I'd add the fact that Axis allies cannot recreate destroyed units and that they cannot have SU attachments (both of which are not historical in any way).

Mayebe these issues will be solved when a total war in europe title comes out, combining all fronts, with the Germans having to make decisions on where and how to allocate units and possibly even affect war production. Maybe one day it will happen...

[M60A3TTS]

We can do with a little less beating on Pelton and a little more focus on what's been presented to us in the latest version.

My current PBEM opponent is often his own worst enemy in the way he expresses his frustration, but I really appreciate him as a player. He knows the game, plays it exceptionally well and gets turns back in a short time span. Recently he offered me the chance to quit our game if I wasn't having fun. You can't ask any more than that as a Soviet player.

The AARs that are getting close to the 225 turn limit show nothing to indicate that the Axis player ends up in as bad a situation as they were historically.
Put aside the game victory conditions and this extended game play beyond May 1945, that I'm no real fan of, and there are three worth looking at.

Tarhunnas vs Gids- Is there anyone who really believes Gids hasn't been outplayed and isn't really the loser here?
Oloren vs Terje- Terje has admitted he's not going to win and is nowhere near historical lines.
IdahoNYer vs Scar- Maybe the most even of the three, but October 1944 and the Axis is still occupying plenty of the USSR.

Would this latest version if played from the start for the 3 games mentioned have altered the results so that the Axis lose Berlin by May '45? I really don't think so. The new winter rules might be a bit too severe for the Axis- I would have preferred they be enabled in 1942, but the reduced Soviet manpower multipliers as well as the reduced command limits and lesser impact of shock and guards armies are going to have an impact in making it more difficult for the Soviet. And those effects are going to last a lot longer than the first winter. The end result may make an Axis knockout blow more difficult, but the end result of the keeping the Soviet hordes at bay in May '45 is a win for the Axis in my book, no matter what the official victory conditions say.

76mm- I feel your pain, these latest changes have put me in the same boat as you with overloaded armies. With these latest changes if I had to look into a crystal ball, I'd predict my game with Pelton ends up about where Terje's will.

[Flaviusx]

ORIGINAL: Klydon


Is there anyone here that really believes that if the Germans had such a reserve in March of 1942 that they could not have cut some sector of the Russian line to pieces? The issue for me is not that they can cut a Russian line to pieces, but the mobility in the snow which is amplified by the fact that these spearheads are elite moral units and they are driving around Russia like its summer time in terms of mobility.

Yes. Me. Could not have been properly supplied. Could not probably even have been railed into the theater to begin with in a timely fashion (somebody uptopic even suggested that the better way to deal with March madness is to hit Axis rail cap. That's not a bad idea in some respects.) Also probably couldn't be railed out of there to begin with to take a breather in Germany.

The Axis was in no logistical condition to launch a massive counteroffensive in March of 1942. They could barely keep the stuff in the field in supply. These things really didn't get straightened out until the rasputitsa proper shut down both armies for good.

It's a fantasy counteroffensive allowed solely by the game's flawed logistical model. The solution chosen is not elegant -- the real fix would be in the logistical model and probably also Axis rail -- but it'll do for the moment.

[Ron]

You know Flaviusx, you would have some credibility if you applied your selective historical criteria to the Russian side as stringently you do the German.

As it stands, yet again the Germans are handcuffed if they show any sort of what-if capability. I'm surprised by the subtle brakes put on the initial '41 offensive - it's not like Russian isn't capable of running fast enough or relocating industry or preserving a huge army already. I'm also surprised this has come out so quickly after the last set of changes.

[Flaviusx]

Ron, what criteria do you wish me to apply to the Soviet side?

I'll happily apply a Stalin rule if you can come up with a good Hitler rule. You might not be happy with the results. This would leave you even more hamstrung than you believe you are now. Mandated Fall Blau. Mandated Axis standfast in the blizzard. Mandated no retreats in general in the late war. No fortifications built in the rear, and most especially not on the Dnepr. For every boneheaded decision you can come up with from Stalin, I can name equally boneheaded ones from Adolf.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

The German side is put on a historical time line that has nothing to do with in game results that limits this incentive.

It's a good observation, so why not take it to an extreme ? Just for discussion purposes. Why not take the German Army in June 1941 and run West, to best defensible positions, dig in like mad many layers deep ?

No blizzard, no losses. Just build up and see if you can stop the Russians from getting to Berlin before the historical timeline...if so, you win.

[Klydon]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Klydon


Is there anyone here that really believes that if the Germans had such a reserve in March of 1942 that they could not have cut some sector of the Russian line to pieces? The issue for me is not that they can cut a Russian line to pieces, but the mobility in the snow which is amplified by the fact that these spearheads are elite moral units and they are driving around Russia like its summer time in terms of mobility.

Yes. Me. Could not have been properly supplied. Could not probably even have been railed into the theater to begin with in a timely fashion (somebody uptopic even suggested that the better way to deal with March madness is to hit Axis rail cap. That's not a bad idea in some respects.) Also probably couldn't be railed out of there to begin with to take a breather in Germany.

The Axis was in no logistical condition to launch a massive counteroffensive in March of 1942. They could barely keep the stuff in the field in supply. These things really didn't get straightened out until the rasputitsa proper shut down both armies for good.

It's a fantasy counteroffensive allowed solely by the game's flawed logistical model. The solution chosen is not elegant -- the real fix would be in the logistical model and probably also Axis rail -- but it'll do for the moment.

15-20 divisions can't be railed in over 1 turn as it is. The reserve usually comes in over several turns depending on the situation. Railcap is an issue, especially if it takes more than 1 turn to rail the troops to where they need to go. These are things the German has to deal with already in order to get his forces into position to launch the counter attack. Note, I am not saying the Axis rail cap is not an issue. In fact, I am one of the ones that has posted that it is too generous, especially during the winter.

I do disagree that forces could not be withdrawn to be rehabilitated over winter. The trains were full going to the front and not used much coming back. The reason more units were not withdrawn was because the Germans were going for the knock out in 1941. Withdrawing a reserve is recognition of playing for the long game; a right of strategy every German should have to make, but is heavily penalized in this game at almost every turn.

I also would point out that in most cases, the Germans have fallen back on shorter logistical lines during the fall back phase of the Russian blizzard offensive. Such shorter lines could not help but improve the logistical situation for the Axis. Now, how much it is improved is a matter for conjecture. To say it is the same as what happen historically to the Germans is absolutely idiotic when you look at how impacted AGC was by the pressure on their lines of communication by partisans, paratroopers and troop movements to their rear. All those had a impact on the supply situation at the front and almost all of them do not apply in a typical game, yet it is thought the Germans should operate under this handicap as if it still exists, even when the German players undertake measures to prevent it.

To put in special rules just to nerf a German tactic is silly. Let the community develop counter tactics instead of trying to "guide" the game in a certain direction. Right now, there is far too much "guiding" of the German side while the Russians hold all the trumps of being able to customize their army in terms of size and composition. If logistics are the issue, then work on fixing that issue instead of doing a "short term fix" like this.

I think they just need to finish the total handicapping of any German attempts to deviate from what they did historically and nerf the Lvov opening as well. The attitude seems to be we just can't have the Germans learning from any of the mistakes of history without getting clubbed by the nerf bat on the grounds of "game play".

I am pretty much done with this game for at least the near future and I doubt further down the road anything will happen that will interest me enough to invest the massive amount of time needed to play a campaign when ill thought out patches like this happen.

[barbarrossa]

I've had the game for almost a month. I've completed one 41-45 campaign as the Soviets, one on going Axis 41-45 and one on-going Soviet 42-45. I'm having a blast with WiTE.

I just jumped in without teasing out every little "gamey" feature and exploit out of the manual or from these boards.

My experience has been a positive, as it was with the original WiTP seven or so years ago. Getting AE soon.

Just to counter all the "I've had enough" posts for balance.

[Ketza]

76mm emailed me about these changes when I had told him I was very busy at work. Since my name is batted around a bit I thought I would chime in fast.

March madness -

In my game against 76mm I destroyed a lot of stuff in the late winter and spring mainly because I caught him off guard with rested Panzer divisions and the entire 18th army which had been resting during the Blizzard. It was my choice to give up territory and take a beating on various sectors of the front during the blizzard so I could reap some rewards later when the weather turned.

Now over time many Axis players picked up on this concept of force preservation during Blizzard. This led to the "march madness" period and the subsequent change of Soviet tactics after the Blizzard was toned down to prepare for the potential of An Axis early offensive.

I do not agree with the change as it takes away a very interesting and fluid time period from the game. As the Axis player you have to plan for it in advance and take risks during Blizzard to make a possible March campaign a success. As the Soviet player you have to consider the march campaign a possibility and prepare accordingly. To me this rules dumbs down a potential area of excitement.

Besides in my game against 76mm all that stuff I killed in the spring did not really make that much of a difference as he was still able to start his steamroller in the winter of 42.

This leads me to my second point.

Although its unfortunate that the new CC rules will wreck late war Soviet HQ set ups of games in progress it is my thought that something had to be done to slow down the Soviets via logistics or C&C. There seemed to be a lot of focus on disrupting Axis logistics (which I agree with to a great extent)in 41 and 42, yet once the Soviets get rolling they can attack at will with huge grinding stacks turn after turn. 76mm has been assaulting the same section of front from winter of 42 right through to the fall of 43 with the only slowdown being the mud turns. To me this is just as unrealistic as what early versions of Axis logistics were able to accomplish. Logistics need to be addressed for the late war Soviet side and this new CC structure will hopefully help.

To let you know I have a Soviet game going where I have already started the grinding offensive in June 42. As I conduct my attacks each turn and push around hapless Panzer divisions who try to plug the holes I keep telling myself this is wrong on so many levels That game is now on the Oct 1 turn and I have been pushing all summer.

I truly appreciate the devs and their hard work. I also appreciate the passion of the players who post here.

Its always a good read!

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: Klydon


Is there anyone here that really believes that if the Germans had such a reserve in March of 1942 that they could not have cut some sector of the Russian line to pieces? The issue for me is not that they can cut a Russian line to pieces, but the mobility in the snow which is amplified by the fact that these spearheads are elite moral units and they are driving around Russia like its summer time in terms of mobility.

Yes. Me. Could not have been properly supplied. Could not probably even have been railed into the theater to begin with in a timely fashion (somebody uptopic even suggested that the better way to deal with March madness is to hit Axis rail cap. That's not a bad idea in some respects.) Also probably couldn't be railed out of there to begin with to take a breather in Germany.

The Axis was in no logistical condition to launch a massive counteroffensive in March of 1942. They could barely keep the stuff in the field in supply. These things really didn't get straightened out until the rasputitsa proper shut down both armies for good.

It's a fantasy counteroffensive allowed solely by the game's flawed logistical model. The solution chosen is not elegant -- the real fix would be in the logistical model and probably also Axis rail -- but it'll do for the moment.

Flaviusx I am not 100% sure on this but:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

Just to nitpick, they did manage to pocket and destroy 2 Armies in January 42 around Rhzev with 3 fresh Divisions from France and the burnt out units at hand.

Also, second the point about excessive mobility being one of the problems, which like many issues, has it's origin in a logistics system that's out of whack.

Is this true?

If it is 2by3 is tring to rewrite history with this patch not follow it.

if it is true it is more then historically possible to have a snow offensive, because the Germans had a Blizzard offensive.

Our current snow O is basicly done with fresh units as per history if mechfo is right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

[;)]

Wiki: Soviet forces along the Kalinin Front and Western Front broke through the German lines west of Rzhev in January, but because of a difficult supply route the troops of the Soviet 22nd Army, 29th Army and 39th Armies became encircled.

Hmm

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

76mm emailed me about these changes when I had told him I was very busy at work. Since my name is batted around a bit I thought I would chime in fast.

March madness -

In my game against 76mm I destroyed a lot of stuff in the late winter and spring mainly because I caught him off guard with rested Panzer divisions and the entire 18th army which had been resting during the Blizzard. It was my choice to give up territory and take a beating on various sectors of the front during the blizzard so I could reap some rewards later when the weather turned.

Now over time many Axis players picked up on this concept of force preservation during Blizzard. This led to the "march madness" period and the subsequent change of Soviet tactics after the Blizzard was toned down to prepare for the potential of An Axis early offensive.

I do not agree with the change as it takes away a very interesting and fluid time period from the game. As the Axis player you have to plan for it in advance and take risks during Blizzard to make a possible March campaign a success. As the Soviet player you have to consider the march campaign a possibility and prepare accordingly. To me this rules dumbs down a potential area of excitement.

Besides in my game against 76mm all that stuff I killed in the spring did not really make that much of a difference as he was still able to start his steamroller in the winter of 42.

This leads me to my second point.

Although its unfortunate that the new CC rules will wreck late war Soviet HQ set ups of games in progress it is my thought that something had to be done to slow down the Soviets via logistics or C&C. There seemed to be a lot of focus on disrupting Axis logistics (which I agree with to a great extent)in 41 and 42, yet once the Soviets get rolling they can attack at will with huge grinding stacks turn after turn. 76mm has been assaulting the same section of front from winter of 42 right through to the fall of 43 with the only slowdown being the mud turns. To me this is just as unrealistic as what early versions of Axis logistics were able to accomplish. Logistics need to be addressed for the late war Soviet side and this new CC structure will hopefully help.

To let you know I have a Soviet game going where I have already started the grinding offensive in June 42. As I conduct my attacks each turn and push around hapless Panzer divisions who try to plug the holes I keep telling myself this is wrong on so many levels That game is now on the Oct 1 turn and I have been pushing all summer.

I truly appreciate the devs and their hard work. I also appreciate the passion of the players who post here.

Its always a good read!

All things being equal this game is still hvly in favor of the Russian side as Katza has pted out.

He is the best German player other then possibly James and he is alrdy getting stream rolled in late 1942.

As he has stated he plays both sides and stated stream rolling his German enemy in June 1942.

Katza has zero bias and has most if not all the players on these boards respect.

The game before 1.06 is hvly in favor of the Russian side alrdy and all things being equal its and easy win during 1944 still for the russian side far sooner then historical.

This patch clearly is a german nerf, on something that is 100% historically possible and does very very little to effect the out come of the game all things being equal.

1.The Germans conducted operations during the first blizzard
2. The game pre 1.05 was still hvyly in favor of a russian win in 1944 all things being equal.

Why the german nerf bat patch after patch?

Pelton