The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[pat.casey]

I have to say the last few massive air battles in this game seem like they're exposing core game engine bugs more than anything else.

Were I you I'd be trying to get a patch out of Tech Support and rewind the clock until at least the day before your big CV battle (leaving the CVE devastation as a more arguably "fair" outcome).

[GreyJoy]

Hakodate is a level 9 AF, with 9 forts and 180 Flak guns (14 Coastal Arty AA regiments plus all the USAFF and USN base forces i have there).
No oversstacking penalities.
My squadrons settings were the following:
 
500 Hellcats-5 at 20,000 feet range 0, 50 CAP
500 Hellcats-3 at 18,000, range 0, 50 CAP
200 Spitfires VIII, at 31,000, range 0, 40 CAP
250 P-47-D25, at 36,000, range 0, 40 CAP
100 P-47-D, at 42,000, range 0, CAP 40
300 F4U-D, at 20,000, range 0, CAP 50
100 Wildcats at 10,000, range 7, CAP 30
200 P-40Ns, at 12,000, range 0, CAP 50
300 P-38 (L and J) at 31,000, range 0, CAP 50
100 Corsairs II, at 20,000, range 0, CAP 50
100 T-Bolds (I and II) at 19,000, range 0 CAP 50
200 between various Corsairs models, British hellcats, P-39s, Mosquitos and seafires between 6,000 and 15,000 feet, range o, CAP 50
 
 
What could i do more?
But above all...with big raids the CAP always get "disoriented"...always out of position...and the bombers ALWAYS get through... there's no way to stop them...
 
I think not even 6,000 fighters would have stopped that raid...and the following raids were even worse...the CAP is always out of position...always...

[Captain Cruft]

Is that nearly 3,000 planes? All at Hakodate?

The other thing is apart from CAP 50% what else is set on the airgroups? Have you explicitly set them to a Rest %? If so then don't.

[:)]

[Grfin Zeppelin]

This looks like EPIC overstacking indeed.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

Is that nearly 3,000 planes? All at Hakodate?

The other thing is apart from CAP 50% what else is set on the airgroups? Have you explicitly set them to a Rest %? If so then don't.

[:)]

9 level AFs are not affected by overstacking penalities.

And it's exactly the same result we've seen over my CVs and over my CVEs....

And no, when i say 50% CAP i mean 50% CAP and the rest on escort (but with 0 range that means the rest of them will be ready to be scrambled).

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

This looks like EPIC overstacking indeed.

But there's no overstacking with 9 and 10 level AFs

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

This looks like EPIC overstacking indeed.

But there's no overstacking with 9 and 10 level AFs

Yes you are right. I peeked into the manual and stand corrected.

[GreyJoy]

but the real point is that CAP, no matter how good, how strong it is, cannot defend against Big raids...
 
only 8 Helens were shot down by flak (another problem...and i have more than 230 90 mm guns at Hakodate...)
 
And all of them got thorugh if escorted...even the second day when the escort was very light...
 
[&:]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

This looks like EPIC overstacking indeed.

But there's no overstacking with 9 and 10 level AFs

This may be true for operations but when the bombs fall or a naval bombardment hits the loss in aircraft on the ground seems to be very high when overstacked. And, if there are not penalties then there should be in future patches. The notion of 3,000 planes at one airfield is absurd. Of course Rader operates the same way and when your bombers have gotten through, his losses have been high on the ground. The difference is he can absorb them and you can't. I think recent events are grounds for an open and creative discussion for ways to limit these fantastic air battles.

Level 9 and 10 airfields should get some big bonuses but overstacking should apply to all airfields and the penalties should be harsher as the number increases. This sort of nonsense that we have seen in your game needs to be worked on. Don't get me wrong. I am not blaming you and Rader for doing it, but it is time for a discussion and serious work to fix it.

Perhaps some mods already have but I would like to see it fixed in stock as well as that is what I am playing.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

This looks like EPIC overstacking indeed.

But there's no overstacking with 9 and 10 level AFs

This may be true for operations but when the bombs fall or a naval bombardment hits the loss in aircraft on the ground seems to be very high when overstacked. And, if there are not penalties then there should be in future patches. The notion of 3,000 planes at one airfield is absurd. Of course Rader operates the same way and when your bombers have gotten through, his losses have been high on the ground. The difference is he can absorb them and you can't. I think recent events are grounds for an open and creative discussion for ways to limit these fantastic air battles.

Level 9 and 10 airfields should get some big bonuses but overstacking should apply to all airfields and the penalties should be harsher as the number increases. This sort of nonsense that we have seen in your game needs to be worked on. Don't get me wrong. I am not blaming you and Rader for doing it, but it is time for a discussion and serious work to fix it.

Perhaps some mods already have but I would like to see it fixed in stock as well as that is what I am playing.

IMHO the problem here isn't the planes torched on the ground. It's ok for me...
The problem imho is the CAP inefficiency when it comes to handle big escorted raids...
The escort always gets mauled and the bombers, no matter how many CAP you put, always get through... that's the problem

And CAP always seems "disoriented" when large raids arrive...

[JohnDillworth]

9 level AFs are not affected by overstacking penalities.

And it's exactly the same result we've seen over my CVs and over my CVEs....

And no, when i say 50% CAP i mean 50% CAP and the rest on escort (but with 0 range that means the rest of them will be ready to be scrambled).

I'm afraid that the game engine is broken. Don't know that this can be patched. I'm afraid this hurts one party much more than the other. One side can produce unlimited aircraft, the other side can not. At best I'd halt the game until tech support comments. I really don't think this is fixable. I don't even know what game you guys are playing any more. There is more bizarre outcomes than realistic ones. This is depressing.

[Captain Cruft]

I still think a screenie of a fighter airgroup and AA unit would be useful.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Doh, was your airfield overstacked ?

Was about my first thought.
The number of different airframes alone looks too much.

GreyJoy, with regards to raids getting through:

Your CAP had to deal with too high numbers again, 600+ escort fighters on first raid. You probably were never able to match these
numbers in the air even 1:1 from what I see in the combat report. For this you killed a load of planes but simply not enough to burn through the escorts.

Problem 1: overstacked airfield
Problem 2: escorts (and good escort fighters as oscars are maneuverable) outnumbering CAP enough to make it useless.

A2A only you achieve a nice result, adding the overstacking you don´t.
If I remember correctly you said yourself that it is a risk. Rader just did the right thing at the right moment.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: Captain Cruft

I still think a screenie of a fighter airgroup and AA unit would be useful.

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Doh, was your airfield overstacked ?

Was about my first thought.
The number of different airframes alone looks too much.

GreyJoy, with regards to raids getting through:

Your CAP had to deal with too high numbers again, 600+ escort fighters on first raid. You probably were never able to match these
numbers in the air even 1:1 from what I see in the combat report. For this you killed a load of planes but simply not enough to burn through the escorts.

Problem 1: overstacked airfield
Problem 2: escorts (and good escort fighters as oscars are maneuverable) outnumbering CAP enough to make it useless.

A2A only you achieve a nice result, adding the overstacking you don´t.
If I remember correctly you said yourself that it is a risk. Rader just did the right thing at the right moment.

this time i don't agree with you mate. And Rader feels exactly the same as me.
He told me that his oscars were 30 experience pilots...just draw from the replacements pool...
Sorry but it doesn't sound right that even 3000 fighters on the best possibile defensive position cannot put a dent against 600 rookies covering 400 bombers...

is there a way to defend against these raids? is there a way to even touch the bombers?

And again...with 3000 fighters ready...why shouldn't i be able to match the escort numbers?

[GreyJoy]

and this is the typical AA unit at Hakodate...

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Problem 1: overstacked airfield
Problem 2: escorts (and good escort fighters as oscars are maneuverable) outnumbering CAP enough to make it useless.

1- If you're talking about the results of the destroyed on the ground...it is not a problem to me. But with a level 9 AF i shouldn't have any penality with my CAP

2- 2900 fighters on CAP should outnumber the escort and not the other way around (with the best possible radars present, good settings, air HQs etc etc)

[aztez]

The air combat seems to completely broken by these larger raids. Sad but true... and lack of AA kills is well pretty much the same.

[Svar]

And, if there are not penalties then there should be in future patches. The notion of 3,000 planes at one airfield is absurd.

I have been following this AAR for months and kept my mouth shut because I didn't have anything to contribute but this statement is just wrong. In any hex of 40 miles by 40 miles there could be many active airfields. Oahu alone probably had over 10. While some were emergency landing fields there were 4 or 5 big ones if my memory from the mid 1970s is correct when I was stationed there in an aviation unit and spent many hours over the island from which I could see all of them including those no longer in use.

[pat.casey]

ORIGINAL: aztez

The air combat seems to completely broken by these larger raids. Sad but true... and lack of AA kills is well pretty much the same.

Actually, its not the lack of kills that concerns me so much as the lack of "turn backs".
Even a disasterous real life raid like Schweinfurt lost < 15% of the bomber force. Typical losses were more like 3-6%.

What CAP and FLAK did was cause the attackers to bomb short, wide, or not at all (turn back).