OT: Radios

[zzodr]

Just to make your head explode more - or make things easier to understand, here is a relativity calculator:
http://www.1728.org/reltivty.htm

I also learnt if you were travelling at light speed around the world at the equator - you would circumnavigate the globe 7.5 times in one second. [8D]

[DrewMatrix]

As I understand it the original experiment, where they thought some neutrinos were exceeding c was in error because they didn't synchronize the clocks at the origin and source ("The clock at the starting line determining when the neutrino started wasn't synchronized to the clock at the finish line deterniming when it arrived")

[Knavey]

Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.[:D]

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: Knavey

Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.[:D]

...i think the leader bug was proof positive that philadelphia experiment concepts were integrated into the coding of this game...

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Ummm...even with all the deep thought going on in this thread, it is still easier to figure out astrophysics and neutrinos than it is to understand the air and ground combat routines of WitP - AE. Obviously BORKED.[:D]

In the spirit in which it is given - i.e., all Knavey 'This Game is BORKED' posts have a 'real' answer - I'll give a shot to an answer.

It all depends on multiple reference frames. Just look at Midway; there was the carriers, there was a bunch of groups in the air, and they are all in different inertial reference frames. Woof !!

When somebody got a hit on a carrier, just which reference frame was that hit in relation to? Maybe the pilot saw a hit, but maybe an observer on the carrier saw a miss; it could happen (Einstein's Train paradox). Maybe Akagi and Kaga got whacked, but maybe they weren't there yet in order to get whacked (Andromeda paradox).

So the combat routines take us away from such mental froth and simply roll the dice to see which reference frame gets recorded.

How am I doing, Knavey? [8D]

[Knavey]

I studied nuclear stuff in the Navy. Just put a knife through my head and it would be more comfortable than understanding the stuf in this thread!

[danlongman]

So when Schroedinger's kat opened the box the Japanes lost the war?

[wdolson]

The sync bug happened and Japan both lost and won the war, depending on which player you were. But then that's Quantum Mechanics.

This is a much more advanced game than you realize. [:D]

Bill

[Ddog]

I emailed my friend and this was his reply to anyone that's interested. He even dumbed down the speed of light talk for me. And he included a link to a comic.

Folows:


As for the neutrinos going faster than light, the beam from Geneva to
Italy claimed they saw this, then they let rumours leak (but no details)
that it was mistaken - a loose cable was an excuse: it's hard to imagine
how that would create a delay, but possible. Would love for them to act
like scientists and actually explain their observations in detail.
We've been busting butt trying to make the measurement with our beam
(Chicago->MN) and have to have an answer of some sort out by the big
neutrino conference beginning of June in Kyoto So, Real Soon Now
we'll have a measurement of neutrino speed we can trust, nothing like
doing the job yourself

I'd be really suprised if they did ring in faster than light, but it
would be way cool.

As for catching radio waves while going fast: no problem. You jump in a
spaceship and get cranking really fast (assuming you're not a neutrino
you're not going equal to or faster than light: this is true for
everything else we've measured, and we measure this a lot). You'll
still see the radio waves coming in at "c". That's Einstein's bit: no
matter where you are or wht you're doing, everyone sees light moving at
the same speed (186,000 miles/sec).

Which is weird. How does it all add up? The answer is that space and
time change based on how fast you're going (velocity = distance/time) to
fudge things out so it all adds up in the end.

So: you're headed off in a 0.9c Dauntless off to intercept my carrier
("slow but deadly" my ass). You'll see my radio signals calling for
some air cover: they'll hit your radio at "c". You will see them
doppler shifted: they'll appear to be much higher frequency as you plow
into the waves (the old "blue shift/red shift" thing).

I see you coming in fast. I'll hear your taunts on the radio hit my
antenna at the same "c". They will be also blueshifted as you zoom in.
The really weird thing: I'll see your time slow down. From my
perspective, your clock ticks more slowly. Note that to you, we're
still closing at 0.9c, and you see exactly the same thing: my carrier's
clock is ticking too slow too.

(fun games with this: look up the "twin paradox").

This really does happen. We can't get planes and people that fast, but
we can get subatomic particles cranked up to within a gnat's ass of
"c". If we use unstable particles, say a muon, we know that they're
unstable and have a half-life of 2.2 microseconds. However, fling them
around at high speed, and they last longer. Change the speed they move,
and their lifetime tracks the calculations of clock change vs. speed
exacly as the calculations predict.

The GPS system has to take all this into account: the satellites and you
are all flying around space, and it turns out gravity itself does the
same time-slowing trick, so where things are in relation to the earth
has to be figured in. If we didn't have the satellites and the
receivers programmed with the relativity calculations, the timing that
lets people figure out where they are would be completely off.

One of the ways we're timing our neutrino beam is with a bunch of really
cool GPS's and atomic clocks on loan from NIST and USNO (they're in
charge of the nation's clocks). It's been a really fun project, getting
to play with a lot of cool new toys!

And here is the Link:
http://xkcd.com/955/

Hope you enjoy!

[ilovestrategy]

ORIGINAL: zzodr

Yes, sadly, we won't be going anywhere beyond our solar system with manned spacecraft. As much as discovery of other planets intrigues and excites us.

You don't know that. None of us do.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: wdolson

CERN did find some results that may have been an indication of a particle traveling faster than light, but the results are still being interpreted. It's been the buzz in the world of Physics lately.

Bill

Nope... false alarm... it was their mistake in testing...


Leo "Apollo11"

[zzodr]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
You don't know that. None of us do.

Actually, yeah I do know that. And none of us will live long enough to prove me wrong,
so basically, im right. [:'(]

[wdolson]

I suppose in the same way scientists of the 1700s believed that heavier than air flight was impossible.

I give it 50/50 odds there is some workable way around the speed of light barrier, but we probably won't find the key in our lifetimes. However, you can't predict when a major scientific or engineering breakthrough will happen that changes the whole playing field.

Bill

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I suppose in the same way scientists of the 1700s believed that heavier than air flight was impossible.

I give it 50/50 odds there is some workable way around the speed of light barrier, but we probably won't find the key in our lifetimes. However, you can't predict when a major scientific or engineering breakthrough will happen that changes the whole playing field.

Bill

I'll take that bet, if you are suggesting we can ever achieve a velocity v' greater then c. However, I will grant that there are ways to fudge it. Jose Alcubierre found one way; not physically possible, but noteworthy.

There aren't many people looking at the nature space-time. At least not in this context. Jose was a pioneer in this regard, and offers some interesting possibilities as to understanding curvature. Curvature is a simple word that is used to describe certain things, but the concept and math are way different. I think the answer will be found in our more complete understanding of space-time. Btw ,it also follows simultanaety.

University of Arizona has people who are thinking along these lines. UA, Huntsville, has some too. C'mon on over and take a Philisophy of Science course with us.

[danlongman]

It has been a long time since i had this much fun learning stuff.
Thank You All.
I do prefer the expression "Based on our current understanding......."
As in "Based on our current understanding of phyzix travel at speeds exceeding "c" is Against The Rules and getting even close to that speed phenomenally difficult."
Anybody remember James Blish's "Cities In Flight" series? Near the end of that an entire planet gets turned into a vehicle using its mass to achieve unthinkable (well somebody thought of it) speeds.
cheers

[CRations]

I was reading that light cannot escape a black hole. So the speed of gravitational pull can exceed the speed of light? Or does time just slow/stop in a black hole (thus slowing the speed of light - if that makes any sense)?

CR

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: CRations
I was reading that light cannot escape a black hole. So the speed of gravitational pull can exceed the speed of light?

Nope. Gravitational pull has no speed, only a slope.

Or does time just slow/stop in a black hole (thus slowing the speed of light - if that makes any sense)?

That's a better question. We can "see" black holes, sometimes with optical, mostly in the sub-nanometer range. But, as you travel down the gravity well, you get closer and closer to a region where the space-time curvature becomes infinite. The way that curvature works in this circumstance is that space-time deformation provides more paths (on a quantum level) for a photon to travel (spin) down, than up and out. Time dilation plays a signifigant role. They all still travel at c, nonetheless.

[mdiehl]

I was reading that light cannot escape a black hole. So the speed of gravitational pull can exceed the speed of light?

A while ago I read that the theory of General Relativity implies that gravity, however it is perpetuated, moves at the speed of light. So if the sun's gravity were suddenly "turned off" the Earth would not go flying away on a tangent of its orbit until approx 8:18 min after you "turned off" the sun's gravity.

[Kwik E Mart]

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I suppose in the same way scientists of the 1700s believed that heavier than air flight was impossible.

I give it 50/50 odds there is some workable way around the speed of light barrier, but we probably won't find the key in our lifetimes. However, you can't predict when a major scientific or engineering breakthrough will happen that changes the whole playing field.

Bill

I'll take that bet, if you are suggesting we can ever achieve a velocity v' greater then c. However, I will grant that there are ways to fudge it. Jose Alcubierre found one way; not physically possible, but noteworthy.

There aren't many people looking at the nature space-time. At least not in this context. Jose was a pioneer in this regard, and offers some interesting possibilities as to understanding curvature. Curvature is a simple word that is used to describe certain things, but the concept and math are way different. I think the answer will be found in our more complete understanding of space-time. Btw ,it also follows simultanaety.

University of Arizona has people who are thinking along these lines. UA, Huntsville, has some too. C'mon on over and take a Philisophy of Science course with us.

...isn't it Miguel? not Jose?...

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I suppose in the same way scientists of the 1700s believed that heavier than air flight was impossible.

I give it 50/50 odds there is some workable way around the speed of light barrier, but we probably won't find the key in our lifetimes. However, you can't predict when a major scientific or engineering breakthrough will happen that changes the whole playing field.

Bill

ORIGINAL: JWE
I'll take that bet, if you are suggesting we can ever achieve a velocity v' greater then c. However, I will grant that there are ways to fudge it. Jose Alcubierre found one way; not physically possible, but noteworthy.

There aren't many people looking at the nature space-time. At least not in this context. Jose was a pioneer in this regard, and offers some interesting possibilities as to understanding curvature. Curvature is a simple word that is used to describe certain things, but the concept and math are way different. I think the answer will be found in our more complete understanding of space-time. Btw ,it also follows simultanaety.

University of Arizona has people who are thinking along these lines. UA, Huntsville, has some too. C'mon on over and take a Philisophy of Science course with us.

I don't believe we will ever be able to exceed the speed of light (the equations start getting imaginary numbers for one thing), but we may find a way around it as suggested by various SF authors like hyperspace, warp drive, or worm holes. There is some math to suggest that some of these things may even be possible, though the science is a long ways from reality.

Bill