Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Elliot and DistantWorlds will remain small just like all other Matrix devs until they release the game on steam and other online market places.The sad thing is most other Matrix games have small appeal but this game could do well with a bigger playerbase meaning Elliot could hire a full time artist,ect.
Steam isn't the panacea for marketing. Getting your game on Steam won't guarantee sales nor exposure. I haven't seen any numbers on the sales of games from Steam - a few cherry-picked figures are bandied about, but nothing conclusive.

Going Steam will also restrict what Elliot can and cannot do - as Notch notes in his blog post. A few more sales (which Steam takes an unspecified chunk of), but restrictions on his expansions/creation of DW. Does it add up to a benefit to Elliot? *shrug* Only Elliot can say. But I don't see DW on Steam, so I'll take that as a "no".

That said, Matrix marketing isn't terribly aggressive. FB has - what - 900 million users? Matrix's FB page has 682 followers. My sister has more friends than that. Matrix FB presence has zero engagement - it's being used like a pamphlet stand at the doctor's office.
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ceyan
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

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Edit:
Whoops, forgot there was a page 2 which had posts to make mine pointless.
Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

ORIGINAL: mullk
Steam caters to a wide verity of gamers but wargaming is dead to all but a very small number of developers and distributors. The only wargame I can think of that Steam has is the Hearts of Iron franchise and I don't necessarily consider HOI a true wargame (more of a expanded risk). Steam is looking for large sales numbers and games found at Matrix and others will never touch the games sold by Steam that cater to the what's in this week crowd. Also the level of support I've seen and experienced at Matrix is otherworldly compared to Steam.

Of course it's good for them to be the provider of very popular and widespread games. But I doubt that "reaching a big audience" is a criteria for any single game. I guess it's more like "something for every niche gamer".
Especially during the last year you see tons of indie games on steam. Even right now, if you check the "new releases" most of the stuff is niche indie games. Frozen Synapse or Geneforge aren't any games appealing to the masses.

But of course there is some math to be done. It has it's reasons why very special programs are extremely expensive. I mean, if you are a company wanting to buy a program for managing an oil derrick you will need to spend thousands of dollars. And of course the company writing the program will not get any more sales if they sell it cheaper - as you wont reach any additional customers and the oil companies need to buy your specialized software anyways.

And I guess it's similar with Distant Worlds. I can't imagine, that steam would allow DW to cost more than 60 bucks on steam and even that would be extreme. 40€ for the "compilation" would probably be more realistic as a "steam price" of such a game. For Matrix Games that might mean that they can't offer the game for 80€ on their homepage anymore.

Lets assume they only get 50% of each sold copy then. That would mean that they need to sell double the copies as before (roughly, not considering steam charges and whatnot but you get what i mean). While that seemed to work for spiderweb (as they would not have continued doing that) that might not be the case for DW. And that is a risk they would need to take of course.

At that point I want to throw in some snippets from Jeff Vogel (Spiderweb)from http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.fr/2011/08/a ... steam.html
The Steam Thing does mean that we are embarking on a great experiment, something that we never planning on doing. But, the way the online games market is moving, something that seems like the right choice.

Avadon: The Black Fortress Is $9.99 On Steam

I've written a lot about how I think it's important to not price niche games too cheaply, and I stand by that. However, at the same time, Avadon will be only ten bucks on Steam, the cheapest we've ever made our newest game for PC/Mac. Why?

1. Steam felt it was the best price. I went into this trusting their judgment, because they know a lot more about selling Indie games than I do. When you're an Indie and Steam comes knocking, you don't say no.
So I'm charging $10 on Steam and for the iPad. By the standards of that market, it's a hefty price, enough for me to earn my living. It's cheap enough to work as an impluse buy. It isn't the $1 or $2 price that I'm still sure would put me out of business.

This means I need to adjust the prices I charge on my own web site. I have changed the price of Avadon to $20, and in the future we will very likely reduce the prices of our earlier games as well. Our next game, Avernum: Escape From the Pit will start out at $20. If this grand experiment works well, we may make future games cheaper still, though I doubt any new game on our own web site will ever go below $15.
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Velihopea
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Velihopea »

Well, steam has 4 million users online on any given time, so what does it make for total potential buyer base? ten times that? And 1,2 million followers on FB.

50% sounds a bit much as usual online distrubutors cut is more in line of 20-30 percent (but dont know about steam though)
Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

Yep, personally I guess it's a good choice to add it on steam due to the large audience.
What I meant with 50% is that they would need to sell it for 40€ instead of 80€.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
50% sounds a bit much as usual online distrubutors cut is more in line of 20-30 percent (but dont know about steam though)
Check around on the Internet. See if you can find a current or former patron of Steam's services that tells what size of a cut Steam takes.

Steam is mum on the whole issue of revenue split. You won't find any verifiable figures. It might be 30%, it might be 90%. We don't know. We can't know - well, not unless someone breaks their NDA with Steam.

And you're focusing entirely on the money issue. Steam controls how you can interact with your customer and what creative paths you can go down - as indicated by Minecraft creator's post above. You give up a lot of control by going with Steam. Whether or not this is something you want to do as a developer is something Elliot has to weigh. And as well, he already has a contract with Matrix which adds another dimension to consider. Can Elliot, Matrix and Steam come to an agreement that's beneficial to all three? Judging from Erik's previous statements that they've already considered Steam distribution and rejected it - I think the answer is pretty clear.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

True. However I don't think that DW has any exclusive content which would be excluded from steam and only available on other sources. And that was pretty much Notches point. This can also be found here:
http://www.golem.de/1106/84199.html
Well, it's german, but it's saying that Electronic Arts stated that Crysis 2 was kicked out of steam as they offered additional content on "another smaller distribution platform" which was not available through steam.
You can probably find better sources in english for that news.
That was 2 months before Notches comment - and checking steam now you can buy Crysis 2 again (including the DLC which was previously not available for steam users I guess).

So while you are right, I don't see the limitation for DW here. Maybe the open Beta for the patch is an issue. No idea.

Besides of that Steam also seems to have change it's attitude a bit. As far as I remember a year ago there were no alpha products and similar on steam.
Right now you can buy Endless Space on steam and you get immediate excess to the alpha (also via steam).
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Discussing the merits of Steam distribution for DW is the same sort of question. Steam doesn't disclose it's business relationship - which is entirely understandable. Erik won't talk about his discussions with Steam, aside from confirming that he had been in contact with them. Professional business behaviour that's hard to question.

Why continue to beat the Steam drum? Erik had all the information in front of him and decided it's not something he wanted to do. Wouldn't it be fair to respect his decision and leave it at that?

Or am I missing something here, and any further discussions on the merits of Steam are something other than discussions on pins and angels?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens
Rosseau
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Rosseau »

I have about 160 games on Steam and had one problem in all these years (with World in Conflict). Big deal, as it cost me $5. I'm a GamersGate customer, too. So, does any sane person want 200 CDs lying around the house and have to manually update every time there's a patch on one of them?

If you are a real hardcore (meaning that you buy very few games and think Shogun 2 is for kiddies), then Matrix is perfect for you. I love Matrix, too. #1 in customer service, forums, etc. I like BF games too, but no matter what they say, if my hard drive goes, I am screwed with all the "re-licensing" hassles.

Just saying, "I hate Steam" makes no sense to me. But more and more I worry. It's a calculated risk that one day some evil mother will hack in there and goodbye maybe to our games. But then I worry about an EMP attack, too!

Sorry to go off topic, Kayoz. Yeah, leave DW off Steam. It might not sell with the FPS crowd until they cut the price to next to nothing.
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MartialDoctor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by MartialDoctor »

I haven't read any of the comments and won't get into any arguments here. But most people, including myself, like Steam. It's the way that most games are sold these days (all of my gamer friends use it) and the market is moving in this sort of direction. It's convenient and many people use it.
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by the1sean »

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Elliot and DistantWorlds will remain small just like all other Matrix devs until they release the game on steam and other online market places.The sad thing is most other Matrix games have small appeal but this game could do well with a bigger playerbase meaning Elliot could hire a full time artist,ect.

I totally agree man. I think Steam and Impulse have done great things for the indy developers out there. Also, Armada 2526 is a perfect example of a game that Matrix released that also got digitally distributed on Impulse and did exceedingly well in sales. I hope that maybe with DW2 Elliot can make that leap to the wider indy game market on platforms like Steam and Impulse; this game is awesome and just needs some more publicity and face time with the kind of PC gamers that frequent those larger digital distribution platforms.
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: the1sean

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

Elliot and DistantWorlds will remain small just like all other Matrix devs until they release the game on steam and other online market places.The sad thing is most other Matrix games have small appeal but this game could do well with a bigger playerbase meaning Elliot could hire a full time artist,ect.

I totally agree man. I think Steam and Impulse have done great things for the indy developers out there. Also, Armada 2526 is a perfect example of a game that Matrix released that also got digitally distributed on Impulse and did exceedingly well in sales. I hope that maybe with DW2 Elliot can make that leap to the wider indy game market on platforms like Steam and Impulse; this game is awesome and just needs some more publicity and face time with the kind of PC gamers that frequent those larger digital distribution platforms.

The question is: Can the developer demand that their product not be required to have the always on stuff that Steam and their ilk currently do? I don't even mind having to be online to activate, as long as it is a one time thing. Any game that requires me to be online also locks me out from playing if something goes wrong with the internet or servers....and that is my major gripe about it.
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Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

The question is: Can the developer demand that their product not be required to have the always on stuff that Steam and their ilk currently do? I don't even mind having to be online to activate, as long as it is a one time thing. Any game that requires me to be online also locks me out from playing if something goes wrong with the internet or servers....and that is my major gripe about it.

Hmm...what exactly do you mean with "always on"? That you need to be online in order to play the game? I can't think of any game on steam which actually needs that. Besides of pure multiplayer titles of course.
I also heard that this was the case for Assasins Creed XYZ, but this wasn't steam but the UBI-Soft "net".
And it's also the case with Diablo 3, which is also not on steam but in battle.net, and as a big part of Diablo 3 is the online experience now, that can't be really compared.
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
The question is: Can the developer demand that their product not be required to have the always on stuff that Steam and their ilk currently do? I don't even mind having to be online to activate, as long as it is a one time thing. Any game that requires me to be online also locks me out from playing if something goes wrong with the internet or servers....and that is my major gripe about it.

Hmm...what exactly do you mean with "always on"? That you need to be online in order to play the game? I can't think of any game on steam which actually needs that. Besides of pure multiplayer titles of course.
I also heard that this was the case for Assasins Creed XYZ, but this wasn't steam but the UBI-Soft "net".
And it's also the case with Diablo 3, which is also not on steam but in battle.net, and as a big part of Diablo 3 is the online experience now, that can't be really compared.

Yes, a game that requires an internet connection just to play it. There is a new simcity game coming out soon, and it requires an always on connection to Origin...I will not be buying.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor
And it's also the case with Diablo 3, which is also not on steam but in battle.net, and as a big part of Diablo 3 is the online experience now, that can't be really compared.

You're ignoring the fact that Diablo 3 single player mode - that is, just you and the computer - requires a constant connection. And yes, you get to experience the joys of lag and crashed games due to disconnects (after it fails to reconnect in 20 seconds or so).

Another brilliant example of DRM gone mad. Oh, hold on - it's not DRM in your eyes, is it?
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Kordanor
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kordanor »

Lets say that I fully understand why it was done and approve that they did it.
But I also understand why you and lots of other people don't like it.
And yes it sucks that the servers were offline so often. No, I would never have started a character which I could never use in multiplayer.
However I will not take part in the discussions about it which must have been done a million times on the internet during the last few weeks.

I guess it served well as an example of an "always online game", which is why I mentioned it.
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Kayoz
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Kayoz »

Joys of Diablo 3's "always on DRM" in single player:

Zero Punctuation Review

He covers the joys of Diablo 3's DRM at about 4min into the clip. Can't put it better than him.
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Shark7
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RE: Plans for Steam? Price Reductions?

Post by Shark7 »

ORIGINAL: Kordanor

Lets say that I fully understand why it was done and approve that they did it.
But I also understand why you and lots of other people don't like it.
And yes it sucks that the servers were offline so often. No, I would never have started a character which I could never use in multiplayer.
However I will not take part in the discussions about it which must have been done a million times on the internet during the last few weeks.

I guess it served well as an example of an "always online game", which is why I mentioned it.

Of course if they went back to selling the game on a disk with a box and manual the draconian DRM stuff wouldn't be so necessary. And unfortunately with these new DRM measures, you are completely at the mercy of the publisher...if they decide they don't want to support the game anymore, your copy just stops working. My games from Matrix where I only need the serial code and can actually get a physical copy...they will always work even if the Internet goes away tomorrow.

It's no different...in both cases I have a licensed copy. The difference is that with Matrix, that is a lifetime license, where with Origin and their ilk, its a license until they decide they don't want to support it anymore. Which sounds like the more valuable product to you?

And yes, I still play games from decades ago...I keep an old computer working just for that reason. [;)]
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