OT: The Edmund Fitzgerald

[Nikademus]

suprised anyone remembers it....or the song. [:D]

[Cribtop]

I was too young to know about the sinking at the time, but Gordon Lightfoot was a favorite of my best friend in High School, and the song always haunted us. Very spooky to hear from Cuttlefish that he was in the area and that it was the worst storm he could remember.

[Nikademus]

I was 'technically' too young as well. But i remember the song. I was humming it long before i knew what the lyrics meant other than that it was a sad tale......even a kid understands the meaning of


"Fellas, it's bin good t'know ya!"

[ilovestrategy]

Oh yeah, I remember the song.

[21pzr]

Nik;

Those of us who go down to the sea for a living usually remember nearly all the ships that have gone down and the men who paid the price. Certainly, you remember the ones during your lifetime.

Now for my unadulteredly partisan pitch. As a note to all who enjoy AE, and love to sink all the xAK's you can, remember that the US Merchant Marine (civilians) had a casualty rate for WWII that was only exceeded by the USMC. Also, the USMMA sent cadets (undergraduates) out to sea on merchant ships during the war, and 142 of them gave their lives during the war. No other federal military academy has had undergraduates killed in war, and that is why the USMMA is the only federal academy to carry a Battle Standard.

Fair winds and following seas, CRSutton;

Bill

[Skyros]

Here is a site with underwater pics.

http://www.3dfitz.com/photos/fitz+details/

[John 3rd]

Very strange and cool to look at!

[mdiehl]

USMMA is the only federal academy to carry a Battle Standard.

Is the Maine Maritime Academy not Federally funded then? Or is it that they just don't have a battle standard?

[CRations]

This is a pretty good link that shows a reasonable theory for the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckWRNWUAmYw&feature=related


CR

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

Now for my unadulteredly partisan pitch. As a note to all who enjoy AE, and love to sink all the xAK's you can, remember that the US Merchant Marine (civilians) had a casualty rate for WWII that was only exceeded by the USMC.

The rate for the USN submarine service was by far the highest at about 1 in 5 KIA.

"A total of 52 submarines were lost, with 374 officers and 3,131 enlisted men. These personnel losses represented 16% of the officer and 13% of the enlisted operational personnel . . .

. . . The 52 submarines represented 18% of all submarines which saw combat duty. This loss of 18%, while high in comparison to the losses sustained by other types of ships of the Allied Forces is considered remarkably low when considered in relation to the results achieved, or when compared with the losses sustained by enemy submarine forces."

http://www.valoratsea.com/losses1.htm

Cursory on-line reaearch shows the merchant marine loss rate to be about 3.9%.

[Icedawg]

Wow! This thread brings back bad memories of a college sailing trip gone really bad.

Some buddies of mine started a sailing club at our school and received a donated boat from a family friend. I had never sailed before, but went out with them for a test sail on Oneida Lake (a medium-sized but very shallow lake in central New York). We were out for maybe half an hour and the boat capsized, which, as my friends explained, was rather common for a small sail boat like the one we had. As we tried to right the boat, the center board and mast snapped, leaving us with an upside down hull which sank about ten minutes later.

This left us out in the lake with a pretty heavy storm developing, darkness rapidly approaching and no boat. We tried to swim for shore, but got caught in a current that pulled us parallel to shore. We could see the house lights on the shore, but they weren't getting any closer. They were just sliding along to our right. The waves were nuts. With the strong wind and the shallow depth of the lake, they were at least 4 or 5 feet high. I thought for sure we were all goners. That's when the Gordon Lightfoot song started going through my head, especially the line,

When suppertime came the old cook came on deck sayin'.
"Fellas, it's too rough t'feed ya."
At seven pm a main hatchway caved in; he said,
"Fellas, it's bin good t'know ya!"

Darkness came and we all pretty much thought were were fish food. But at what must have been around 10 pm, one of my friends spotted something in the moonlight bobbing up and down a couple of waves over. We swam over toward it and heard a voice calling to us. It was a windsurfer who also got caught out in the storm. His rig was pretty much destroyed, but he still had his board. With the strong waves, he wasn't able to make any progress towards shore alone, but with the four of us holding onto the board and kicking, we finally made it to shore around midnight. (To this day, I am absolutely amazed at how lucky we all were - what were the odds of us drifting to within sight of that guy and his board?!)

We had been in the water for about 7 hours and when I felt that sandy bottom on my toes, I just about cried. It was the best feeling ever! Needless to say, I've never been on a boat out on the water since (and never will be again). And whenever I hear "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", I get goosebumps!

[Icedawg]

Oops. Mistake editing.

[oldman45]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

Now for my unadulteredly partisan pitch. As a note to all who enjoy AE, and love to sink all the xAK's you can, remember that the US Merchant Marine (civilians) had a casualty rate for WWII that was only exceeded by the USMC.

The rate for the USN submarine service was by far the highest at about 1 in 5 KIA.

"A total of 52 submarines were lost, with 374 officers and 3,131 enlisted men. These personnel losses represented 16% of the officer and 13% of the enlisted operational personnel . . .

. . . The 52 submarines represented 18% of all submarines which saw combat duty. This loss of 18%, while high in comparison to the losses sustained by other types of ships of the Allied Forces is considered remarkably low when considered in relation to the results achieved, or when compared with the losses sustained by enemy submarine forces."

http://www.valoratsea.com/losses1.htm

Cursory on-line reaearch shows the merchant marine loss rate to be about 3.9%.

American Merchant Marine

Mariners suffered the highest rate of casualties of any service in World War II, but unfortunately, the U.S. Merchant Marine had no official historians and researchers, thus casualty statistics vary.


Service Number serving War Dead Percent Ratio
Merchant Marine 243,000* 9,521** 3.90% 1 in 26
Marines 669,108 19,733 2.94% 1 in 34
Army 11,268,000 234,874 2.08% 1 in 48
Navy 4,183,466 36,958 0.88% 1 in 114
Coast Guard 242,093 574 0.24% 1 in 421
Total 16,576,667 295,790 1.78% 1 in 56

*Number varies by source and ranges from 215,000 to 285,000. War Shipping Administration Press Release 2514, January 1, 1946, lists 243,000
**Total killed at sea, POW killed, plus died from wounds ashore

Isn't the internet great. [:D]

[Schanilec]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow! This thread brings back bad memories of a college sailing trip gone really bad.

Some buddies of mine started a sailing club at our school and received a donated boat from a family friend. I had never sailed before, but went out with them for a test sail on Oneida Lake (a medium-sized but very shallow lake in central New York). We were out for maybe half an hour and the boat capsized, which, as my friends explained, was rather common for a small sail boat like the one we had. As we tried to right the boat, the center board and mast snapped, leaving us with an upside down hull which sank about ten minutes later.

This left us out in the lake with a pretty heavy storm developing, darkness rapidly approaching and no boat. We tried to swim for shore, but got caught in a current that pulled us parallel to shore. We could see the house lights on the shore, but they weren't getting any closer. They were just sliding along to our right. The waves were nuts. With the strong wind and the shallow depth of the lake, they were at least 4 or 5 feet high. I thought for sure we were all goners. That's when the Gordon Lightfoot song started going through my head, especially the line,

When suppertime came the old cook came on deck sayin'.
"Fellas, it's too rough t'feed ya."
At seven pm a main hatchway caved in; he said,
"Fellas, it's bin good t'know ya!"

Darkness came and we all pretty much thought were were fish food. But at what must have been around 10 pm, one of my friends spotted something in the moonlight bobbing up and down a couple of waves over. We swam over toward it and heard a voice calling to us. It was a windsurfer who also got caught out in the storm. His rig was pretty much destroyed, but he still had his board. With the strong waves, he wasn't able to make any progress towards shore alone, but with the four of us holding onto the board and kicking, we finally made it to shore around midnight. (To this day, I am absolutely amazed at how lucky we all were - what were the odds of us drifting to within sight of that guy and his board?!)

We had been in the water for about 7 hours and when I felt that sandy bottom on my toes, I just about cried. It was the best feeling ever! Needless to say, I've never been on a boat out on the water since (and never will be again). And whenever I hear "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", I get goosebumps!

Wow![&o] Almost like being born again.
A good buddy of mine lost his grandfather, dad and an uncle out fishing on Lake of the Woods (that nob on the top of Minnesota) to a storm that suddenly brewed up and didn't make it back to shore in time.

[The Gnome]

A REALLY good video of the song, and vids of the actual Edmund Fitzgerald on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: 21pzr

Now for my unadulteredly partisan pitch. As a note to all who enjoy AE, and love to sink all the xAK's you can, remember that the US Merchant Marine (civilians) had a casualty rate for WWII that was only exceeded by the USMC.

The rate for the USN submarine service was by far the highest at about 1 in 5 KIA.

"A total of 52 submarines were lost, with 374 officers and 3,131 enlisted men. These personnel losses represented 16% of the officer and 13% of the enlisted operational personnel . . .

. . . The 52 submarines represented 18% of all submarines which saw combat duty. This loss of 18%, while high in comparison to the losses sustained by other types of ships of the Allied Forces is considered remarkably low when considered in relation to the results achieved, or when compared with the losses sustained by enemy submarine forces."

http://www.valoratsea.com/losses1.htm

Cursory on-line reaearch shows the merchant marine loss rate to be about 3.9%.

American Merchant Marine

Mariners suffered the highest rate of casualties of any service in World War II, but unfortunately, the U.S. Merchant Marine had no official historians and researchers, thus casualty statistics vary.


Service Number serving War Dead Percent Ratio
Merchant Marine 243,000* 9,521** 3.90% 1 in 26
Marines 669,108 19,733 2.94% 1 in 34
Army 11,268,000 234,874 2.08% 1 in 48
Navy 4,183,466 36,958 0.88% 1 in 114
Coast Guard 242,093 574 0.24% 1 in 421
Total 16,576,667 295,790 1.78% 1 in 56

*Number varies by source and ranges from 215,000 to 285,000. War Shipping Administration Press Release 2514, January 1, 1946, lists 243,000
**Total killed at sea, POW killed, plus died from wounds ashore

Isn't the internet great. [:D]

That's the source I used in my post.

My point, which you may have missed, is you can use statistics to portray the same events in many ways. Lumping KIAs into "services" is one way to cut the data. The USN had immense shore-based infrastructure in training, repair, logistics, and intelligence, and those folks were never in any danger from combat. Ditto the Army. Of sea-going USN sailors, many never saw any action as they were in the military equivalent of the merchant marine.

But when you untangle the stats, and look deeper into the USN, you find the numbers I posted. The submarine "service" was a separate, mini-navy. It's own HQ structures, ship types, training pipeline, command quals, bases, etc. It was all-volunteer. And it had the highest casualty rate of the war. Far more than the Marines as you show above. And far more than the Merchant Marine. If you started the war already in subs, well, good luck to you.

[mdiehl]

We can all agree that all of those tasks were risky. I have tons of regard for the MM and the submarine service. I would not have wanted to serve in either. In the submarines, well, you're under water. No thanks. In the MM, you're in a slow target with little capability to even shoot back, even if you ever see the U-boat that's after your ship.

[Cribtop]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg

Wow! This thread brings back bad memories of a college sailing trip gone really bad.

Some buddies of mine started a sailing club at our school and received a donated boat from a family friend. I had never sailed before, but went out with them for a test sail on Oneida Lake (a medium-sized but very shallow lake in central New York). We were out for maybe half an hour and the boat capsized, which, as my friends explained, was rather common for a small sail boat like the one we had. As we tried to right the boat, the center board and mast snapped, leaving us with an upside down hull which sank about ten minutes later.

This left us out in the lake with a pretty heavy storm developing, darkness rapidly approaching and no boat. We tried to swim for shore, but got caught in a current that pulled us parallel to shore. We could see the house lights on the shore, but they weren't getting any closer. They were just sliding along to our right. The waves were nuts. With the strong wind and the shallow depth of the lake, they were at least 4 or 5 feet high. I thought for sure we were all goners. That's when the Gordon Lightfoot song started going through my head, especially the line,

When suppertime came the old cook came on deck sayin'.
"Fellas, it's too rough t'feed ya."
At seven pm a main hatchway caved in; he said,
"Fellas, it's bin good t'know ya!"

Darkness came and we all pretty much thought were were fish food. But at what must have been around 10 pm, one of my friends spotted something in the moonlight bobbing up and down a couple of waves over. We swam over toward it and heard a voice calling to us. It was a windsurfer who also got caught out in the storm. His rig was pretty much destroyed, but he still had his board. With the strong waves, he wasn't able to make any progress towards shore alone, but with the four of us holding onto the board and kicking, we finally made it to shore around midnight. (To this day, I am absolutely amazed at how lucky we all were - what were the odds of us drifting to within sight of that guy and his board?!)

We had been in the water for about 7 hours and when I felt that sandy bottom on my toes, I just about cried. It was the best feeling ever! Needless to say, I've never been on a boat out on the water since (and never will be again). And whenever I hear "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald", I get goosebumps!

Yikes, quite a yarn. It's amazing how quickly things can go from fun day to we're screwed. I've sailed and power boated all my life, and there have been a few hairy moments, but nothing like that. Don't think I could ever give it up, though. My English genes love the water too much. [;)]

[21pzr]

While I don't disagree with Bullwinkle about the high loss rate in the sub service, remember that they were in the Navy, while every single merchant mariner lost was a civilian, including those who chose to make the Murmansk or Malta runs several times, and many who were torpedoed more than once. I'm not sure what you are referring to as the "military equivalent of the merchant marine", as only those ships that were classed as "AP" or "AK" were naval vessels with Navy crews, and these were in combat situations, as mdiehl says, without much hope of hitting back. Every other cargo and passenger ship ("xAK and xAP") were manned by civilian mariners, who put themselves in harms way many times. All of the services quoted by Oldman had enormous logistical tails, while every merchant mariner was on a ship. It took until the 80's before there was any action taken to grant merchant mariners who served in WWII veteran status.

As for Maine Maritime Academy, no it is not federally funded, nor are the other state maritime academies (Great Lakes, New York, Massachussets, Texas A&M, California), which are great institutions that provide quality graduates to the merchant marine every year. My point is that none of the other federal service academies (West Point, Annapolis, Air Force, or Coast Guard) ever sent undergraduates to war, and were not granted a Battle Standard by the DOD, which displays the battle ribbons won by the undergraduates.

I myself was an undergraduate cadet during the Vietnam war, and sailed ships into that war zone, and more recently did the same during the first Gulf war, and came under SCUD fire in the port of Dammam. I have great respect for our armed forces, and the men and women who serve, but would only like recognition of those of us who help them do their job by bringing the bullets and beans, trucks and tanks. I am proud of my Vietnam and Desert Storm campaign ribbons, and it was only my wife's reasoning that it was a young man's place that kept me from going back to the Gulf for Iraqi Freedom. I'm way too old to be sitting on 30,000 tons of explosives. Read "Sailing into the Abyss" about the trials of the SS Badger State during Vietnam, to learn about merchant seamen carrying war materials (explosives).

Thanks to all our veterans, from all wars, and to our current service personnel, for a job well done.


Bill

[oldman45]

I don't think anybody is diminishing the courage and sacrifice of the merchant marine. They do deserve recognition.