When are you gonna do promotion?

[Darkspire]

I love this fourm, defo second on my all time, Galciv being first (as it was about a decade or so ago) [:D]

Darkspire

[Cruis.In]

i just think a lack of funding is whats holding dw back from any engine improvements etc, such as licensing a good renderer, instead of using xna and .net

with all its short comings dw is so great, imagine without short comings.

wish they could sell more units. Demo the game, lower price, get more players, more profit. I want them to profit more!

Is it bad to wish this for someone?

[Bingeling]

To shift technology, Elliot will have to invest the time necessary to learn it as well. A 1 man project does not hire a developer with expertise in a special tech, it works with its existing, internal, resources.

I figure that a reason for "old and cheap" tech is that the game was started from nothing quite a while ago.

As for sales, I have no clue, but I hope they are gathering enough money to support further development.

[Velihopea]

ORIGINAL: Baleur
Why would it get messy?

Kayoz "the arrogant". The self-declared winner of these discussions. Who hasn't got a glue about business and hence thinks Matrix knows all.

1) Quote from Paradox studio manager Johan (You know the developer that makes niche grand startegy games) : LINK
"There doesn't really exist any other system that has achievements... And its not worth it for us to make our own system for the 2-3% who don't buy games at steam."

2) And corporate sales Shams: LINK
"Digital retailers generally (can't be specific) take a 30% cut of the the sale of each product. Whatever remains is sent to the whoever's selling the product...

So regarding a low price point - logic clearly dictates that we won't discount a game unless we thought it was a good business move. So you don't need to worry - nothing increases copies sold, revenue, active users and free marketing than a prominent sale.

The beautiful part (and this has been somewhat of a secret for a while) is that AFTER a sale you see increased average sales by a factor of 2-10 - at full price."

3) And from Frogboy (Elemental: FE) : LINK
"For all the shouts that “PC gaming is d0med” we’ve heard over the years, it strikes me as odd that Galactic Civilizations II, a game released 6 years ago and is almost certainly in the top 100 best sellers on Steam has done over $1 million in the past year alone on that platform. And that’s just Steam and not counting Impulse or direct or retail or anywhere else it’s available. That strikes me as a pretty healthy platform."

These are all comments from "niche" game sellers. And just a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games. And both from companies that have previously been quite anti-steam (before going steam) and had their own priviledged sales platform (GG,Impulse) to bad effect.

And you just have to look at the interest/marketing in Pandora to notice that Scifi and Fantasy games are not in the right place in the Matrix portfolio. But ultimately it's up to questimate if a game would sell in steam. I bet Gary Grigsby or AGEOD would not sell well, but Pandora, Panzer Corps and DW would. Nobody knows for sure, not Matrix, Erik, or Kayoz. But it's not wise IMO to put DW in the same basket with historical hard-core strategies and let the sales depend on this forum and for that target group only.

[Darkspire]

And in the blue corner Velihopea and in the red corner Kayoz ... ding ding

Darkspire

[Pipewrench]

Darkspire, What have you done? [;)][:D]

....Watching carefully on the sidelines as backseat driving into marketing my way becomes the thread of threads.....
vs

[Velihopea]

And in the blue corner Velihopea and in the red corner Kayoz ... ding ding

It would seem that way. Same happened with Paradox forums a time back. Steam haters were so laud in the forums, that it seemed that they were a majority or at least 1:1 of the customer base. It turned out they were a 2-3% majority

Practically Paradox had to tell them to stop it. There is even one on the linked thread that tried to argue against the figures given by Paradox. And they HAVE the actual figures of the actual sales.

[DevildogFF]

My money - and support - is with Velihopea.

At least he isn't behaving poorly. Plus, he has a rather good point.

[Gareth_Bryne]

Kayoz is Kayoz, rough, sarcastic, in-your-face. Rude... well, he somehow always treads the line but never crosses it[:D].

Guys, instead of presenting all of your monetary arguments, obviously well-formed and heavily supported by 15-year management experience CVs for GE, whatever side you're on, please remember, that all you CAN do is voice your support for or against Steam. Eric and Elliot are the choosers. Indeed, we might say more or less truthfully that DW sales are more than satisfactory for Matrix and them, since the game just keeps on ticking, and adding expansions (3!) over several years, in spite of (IMHO) a serious lack of promotion and (less importantly for me) non-presence on Steam.

So let's have world peace in our little community, go beat up Darkspire together and eat his popcorn[:D].

[ASHBERY76]

Imagine what Elliot could do with a team and a good art budget.The game has had pittance in art assets in the expansions and they even got free unpaid work from Woodman.

[Darkspire]

ORIGINAL: pipewrench

Darkspire, What have you done? [;)][:D]

....Watching carefully on the sidelines as backseat driving into marketing my way becomes the thread of threads.....
vs

Its always worth chucking on more gas if it looks like the fire might go out

To be honest though I tried Steam and it caused no end of problems with my games and system. Ive got nothing against it except that it wasnt just one game but quite a few, I really liked the things that it opens up for your games like the achievements etc but it just caused to many problems in to many areas to make it worthwhile, I run a tight ship on my PC, you have to in this day and age , and the Steam client was just to nosey in to many areas, like when you click on a Facebook app, it asks for all your details, well at least that asks and you can click no, you dont have that option with Steam and that is what I dont like. Games that I had on disk I also bought on there and found they were running slower or they would become unstable, they never did that when I just installed them from the disk, and as I said it wasnt just one game but quite a few. Ive got the free X Game, Albion Prelude because I bought the X boxset but I wont touch it with a bargepole, no matter how much id love to play it because of Steam. We as PC owners should have the option of what and how we access our games, not be dictated and montiored to for the sake of marketing and stats.

Now can I please go back to winding Kayoz up??

Darkspire

[Cruis.In]

so this is a one man project?

leave matrix and kick start!

[ehsumrell1]

REALLY GUYS? [&:]

Attacking long time forum members and/or beginning and fueling flamewars? [:-]

What ever happened to "all opinions are valid"? Whether we agree or disagree
with what Matrix Games does or doesn't do with their game, or how much it sells,
or what the marketing strategy is (or isn't) IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!

PLEASE, lets spend more time discussing, promoting, modding and PLAYING Distant Worlds
instead of trying to analyze what Erik and Elliot's marketing plan is. Or whether Steam
is viable or not for marketing.

One other thought, if we want more exposure for the game (which would mean more people would
probably join and read the DW forums), quite possibly a more CIVIL atmosphere and respect for
each other would prevail and retain new members. Just a thought from a fellow forum member and
very pleased owner of this game! Hopefully this can end here!

TO ALL!

[slovenian89]

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1

REALLY GUYS? [&:]

Attacking long time forum members and/or beginning and fueling flamewars? [:-]

What ever happened to "all opinions are valid"? Whether we agree or disagree
with what Matrix Games does or doesn't do with their game, or how much it sells,
or what the marketing strategy is (or isn't) IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!

PLEASE, lets spend more time discussing, promoting, modding and PLAYING Distant Worlds
instead of trying to analyze what Erik and Elliot's marketing plan is. Or whether Steam
is viable or not for marketing.

One other thought, if we want more exposure for the game (which would mean more people would
probably join and read the DW forums), quite possibly a more CIVIL atmosphere and respect for
each other would prevail and retain new members. Just a thought from a fellow forum member and
very pleased owner of this game! Hopefully this can end here!

TO ALL!

Why is it necessary to split up forum members based on how long they have been here? I think "Attacking forum members and/or beginning and fueling flamewars?", would be more appropriate for your first sentence. At least to me your original statement makes it seem like attacking "long time" members is a no-no, while attacking newer members is just fine. We are all members here & enjoy the same game, and we should all be treated equally regardless of when we joined (especially considering this game is pretty unknown).

I do agree that we are all entitled to our opinions, differing opinions makes discussion and conversation which is great for a forum. However, I disagree that those things are none of our business. As a consumer & player of their product(s), it does matter to me what they do with the game, as it will affect if I continue buying from them. How much it sells & their marketing strategy is important to me as a consumer as well. It tells me that they are dedicated to their product and intend to continue expanding and gathering more people to enjoy the entertainment they have provided us with. It is our game as much as it is theirs.

May I ask why must the consumers be stuck with promoting the product while the company doesn't seem to put any effort into it? I've tried promoting this game to many of my friends and it failed due to the high price, lack of a demo, and them not knowing this company at all. It kind of sucks not being able to talk about the game with my friends because they aren't playing it. I know the developers looked at Steam before, but I really think it's a good time to look again. Steam Greenlight only costs $100 and it will get views on Steam and will let the developers know if Steam is a good place to sell their game, as developers will get statistics on views, votes, and can have a discussion there with Steam users. I'm not certain of the exact views on Greenlight, but most (if not all) of the games "Greenlit" on Steam thus-far have gotten into the Top 20 Sellers list on Steam, which isn't the easiest thing to do.

On your last thought, I agree completely. I know I lurked around here for a long time before joining for two reasons: members seemed unfriendly & forums weren't very active. I bet you there are a lot of others just like that but haven't taken the step to join yet. I'll tell you right now, those same reasons keep me from buying a game as well, especially when you add the reasons I mentioned in my previous paragraph. I will admit this, I first obtained this game from an "alternative source" for the same reasons I mentioned in this and the previous paragraph. After playing the game for a while, and getting great enjoyment out of it, I decided to purchase the game to support the developers. That whole step could have been avoided if there was a demo, and let me say that most people wouldn't end up buying the game after the first step.

On a final note, I'm not a business expert but I am a gamer and consumer, my opinion related to game marketing is still certainly valid.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
Kayoz "the arrogant".

Hrmm? I'm "arrogant"?

Let's get this straight -
Your position: You know better than Erik and other Matrix staff what business decisions will produce the most profit for Matrix and Code Force.
My position: I do not know what is best, and trust that Matrix is making the best decisions for themselves and Code Force.

And you call me arrogant?

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
...hasn't got a glue about business and hence thinks Matrix knows all.

I can't comment on your chemical recreational activities. Suffice to say, that it might explain your irrationality.

As for business, you have already demonstrated your grasp of business practice in your previous confusion with the terms "sales", "revenue" and "profit". It seems you haven't learned anything since our last discussion.

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
1) Quote from Paradox studio manager Johan

I fail to see what achievements has to do with Matrix profitability.

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
2) And corporate sales Shams:

He says nothing about increased profit - only revenue.

You don't actually believe that Steam sales and a game's placement on Steam's high-profile list is done purely at the request of the seller? Steam's own FAQ seems to indicate that there are additional charges associated with selling on steam - which may very well include additional charges/revenue cuts for placement in high visibility Steam promotions.

ORIGINAL: Steam FAQ
http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php
7. What other fees come out of my revenue share?

There are some specific adjustments made depending on such things as fraud and returns and these are outlined more fully in our distribution agreement that we will send to you if your game is going on Steam. We do not make deductions for marketing or bandwidth.

Again, there are no specifics. But every promotion has associated costs - and the person who does have that information - Erik - has decided it isn't such a great deal. Yet somehow you know better, despite having no information of the Steam-Matrix negotiations.

Hrmm... and I'm the arrogant one?

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
3) And from Frogboy (Elemental:
<snip>
These are all comments from "niche" game sellers. And just a small sample of proof of steam being a good platform for niche games.

I'm afraid that I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that Frogboy is shouting accolades of Steam. He seems to be quite critical of the lack of transparency from Steam and their like in releasing information that could be useful to developers in determining the number of sales they might expect.

I really have to ask - did you actually read Frogboy's post?

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
Nobody knows for sure, not Matrix, Erik, or Kayoz.

Nope, I don't know. But I trust that Erik/Matrix can make an educated and informed decision. I contend that they (Matrix) would not have lasted as long as they have in this business if they were not astute in their business decisions.

You, on the other hand, cannot tell the difference between "profit" and "sales".

I think I'm quite justified in having more confidence in Erik's business judgment than yours.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Darkspire
Now can I please go back to winding Kayoz up??

Naughty boy!

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: ehsumrell1
IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!

That's my position in a nutshell.

[Velihopea]

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
Hrmm? I'm "arrogant"?

Yes, and everybody else knows it but you.

I fail to see what achievements has to do with Matrix profitability.

You fail to see the point of the post it seems. Did you even read it, or was it too hard a reality to grasp? You again took the detail you could comment something sarcastically about and (unconciously) missed the whole point.

I'm afraid that I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that Frogboy is shouting accolades of Steam. He seems to be quite critical of the lack of transparency from Steam and their like in releasing information that could be useful to developers in determining the number of sales they might expect. I really have to ask - did you actually read Frogboy's post?

Now I have to laugh. YOU again missed completely how this post by frogboy is relevant in this discussion. Yes, he refers that ALL distributors should be more open on the sales figures so that DEVELOPERS could make more informed decisions. Point being: Steam is a very good distribution platform, but alas the DEVELOPERS do not now the extent of it and BECAUSE THAT THEY CANNOT MAKE VERY INFORMED DECISIONS because there is huge lack of information available for decisionmaking! Frogboy=game developer, and not a small 1 man at that.

Quote: "Right now, game developers too often feel like they’re playing the lottery and that’s not a healthy way to run a business."
So.. please read/think again.

I can't comment on your.. LINK..

You really think I would open that?

He says nothing about increased profit - only revenue.

Again you demonstrate that you know nothing of business. Clear links with clear message, and still you refuse to see the point. I though we were already clear on this: I know my business accounting, you are just barking without any experience or education in it. I would like to challenge you to answer some questions like "What can you say about the links between income accounting and other parts of business accounting" but alas, google is invented, you have all the time and it would become completely OT (not that it would bother you). I'm tempted though because you clearly have no idea, I have, and you insist otherwise.

As for business, you have already demonstrated your grasp of business practice in your previous confusion with the terms "sales", "revenue" and "profit". It seems you haven't learned anything since our last discussion...You, on the other hand, cannot tell the difference between "profit" and "sales".

You are repeating yourself. I could tell you a more lot than that OT.

I think I'm quite justified in having more confidence in Erik's business judgment than yours.

I understand your position: You trust MAtrix to know best (for code force). There is a lot on that I could comment sarcastically about and nitpick on. Though all of it would not be totally fair towards Matrix and Erik, because I think they are quite sincere (but not super-people with sixth sense)

I also HOPE the same as you and HOPE DW is getting the best out of its success (as a game) as it can. But I'm not as blue eyed as you about on how certain that decision is. Let's hope you are right and I'm wrong.

Usually, if a wrong decision is made, it becomes apparent in feedback. A lot of people (not knowing the previous feedback) express the same point again and again. It should ring some bells. Not that it would be proof of a wrong decision.

[Kayoz]

ORIGINAL: Velihopea
Point being: Steam is a very good distribution platform, but alas the DEVELOPERS do not now the extent of it and BECAUSE THAT THEY CANNOT MAKE VERY INFORMED DECISIONS because there is huge lack of information available for decisionmaking! Frogboy=game developer, and not a small 1 man at that.

He's not talking about Steam. He's talking about the PC as a gaming platform.

Look at the opening paragraph - "If you’re a game developer trying to decide whether to make a game for the PC, XBox, Wii U, PS3, iPad, Android, etc. knowing the likely sales outcome is critical. And yet, even at this stage, it’s very difficult to have an idea of how well a game will do on a target platform.". Platform == operating system.

Second paragraph - "What is needed is some sort of metric that lets would-be developers gauge what their prospective return on investment is if they are successful on that platform.". Again, he's referring to the PC/XBox/Wii/etc as platform choices.

Third paragraph - he cites iPad sales - "But if my game can make it into the top 10 seller on a given platform by selling only a few hundred units for a given time period, that’s not a good sign to me.". Again, he's referring to the decision to develop a game for the iPad - the iPad being a platform.

Then in the paragraph you refer to, he opens with "For all the shouts that “PC gaming is d0med”" - and goes on to talk about GC2 doing $1m in sales, then goes on to say "That strikes me as a pretty healthy platform." - it seems pretty clear that he's referring to PC gaming as a platform.

Next paragraph - "But until that developer has taken the plunge on a particular platform, there is no readily available way for them to know what kinds of sales their game can expect." - how the hell can Steam be the platform and have sentence make any sense?

You clearly have problems with your reading comprehension. Steam is clearly not the "platform" he's referring to.

I rest my case. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Velihopea]

You clearly have problems with your reading comprehension.I rest my case. You don't know what you're talking about.

I know I'm throwing my energy against a brick wall here, but again: I know he is talking about platforms and I know what that means. Again you are just picking what suits you. It is rather insulting that you again and again explain basic stuff like that.

Many times you have asked of any proof of steam as a healthy platform. There it is in clear figures and still you skip it. There is a small strategy game developer (+the other links) talking about "the steam factor" and complaining the lack of visibily to make informed decisions and still you ignore it. What kind of proof do you need? Direct message addressed to you, with exact figures and signed by all the distributors in the business?

You have your belief and as believers go, there is never enough evidence to prove you wrong. Yes, we can rest the case again until the next unhappy newcomer brings it up. Just put down the "last word" and we will be done with this.

EDIT: yes, I wrongly used the term "distribution platform", the right term would be "distribution software"? You love your terms so please correct me on that...
EDIT2: "Steam is a digital distribution, digital rights management, multiplayer and communications platform developed by Valve Corporation." On further examination: I wasn't using wrong terms, you were just nitpicking, please do NOT correct me