Build 4.4.257 Feedback

Remmes · Post by **Remmes** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:36 pm

I have experienced several ctd's in the tutorial (Return to St Vith scenario). Played the 'Hell on wheel counterattack' scenario a couple of times but it runs smoothly.

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:42 pm

Might be map specific thing going on?

nav..very unlikely this year in my opinion..as far as I can work out actual work on implementing the new features for EF hasn't started as such yet..scenarios and OOBs have though. So I think implementing and testing the EF games new features is going to take at least a year if not near two. I'm sure Dave would have liked to be further along as you said at one point he mention 2012 was a distant possibility.

COTA expansion isn't out yet, BFTB has to be signed off. I presume the next proper patch will be the final unless something major happens, if you think how long it takes for patches imagine how long it takes for new features then testing..such a complex game means the slightest thing probably takes days sometimes weeks to sort out.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:18 pm

In the image you can see c coy 3 Irish Gds has just passed 2.HOF

As he did so the TLOS tool can no longer pick 2.HOF up when used on C Coy Irish Gds.
I think this is a problem as far as I can tell he no longer is shooting at him, but is being shot in the back by 2.HOF.
The other units facing 2.HOF have a TLOS and are firing but are almost the exact same distance from 2.HOF as C Coy 3 Irish Gds.

I have seen this behaviour a few times now and wonder if it has anything to do with this patch note?

Remove LOS check inside CanFire() where a unit is passed in as unit will be from know visible threats. In other words stop double checking LOS. This ensures that a unit can have a chance to fire at a visible threat and reduced processing - excellent! In testing it increased the number of fire events by 70%.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:50 pm

Only a few hours into a new game and already D Coy has run out of .303 his primary ammo!

He has only engaged 4 times since the scenario started.
Is this wrong or am I making to big a deal of it, and its how it should be?

I certainly don't remember it being a problem before the patch or maybe I just didn't notice it, and its always been like this?

It may have even been a big factor in why we thought that close combat was working so bad before, in the last patch.
It wasn't an accuracy thing it was just that the casualties were so low, as no one had any ammo, and we just never noticed?

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:07 pm

At least I got a proper top up this time [:)]

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:09 pm

The casualty thing wasn't anything to do with ammo..lots of lead was flying around.

The unit may not have started the scenario with that much ammo?

If you sent the save to Dave then he will be checking it out..obviously if it happened before to you it isn't going to stop if there is a problem and if there is Dave will get to the bottom of it.

Did you check how many trucks the supply base had?

I did notice they where calling in supply every hour..so obviously they weren't getting that much each time. Again now Dave knows don't worry to much about it.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:30 pm

27 minutes later and 2 more engagements, and its all gone again!

2.HOF is stuck underneath D Coy taking no casualties as D Coy have run out of ammo again.

No wonder the MOD never gave us Brits assault rifles that fired on full auto until the SA80 in the 80's [8|]

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:55 pm

Hmm..thats alot of ammo burn in 27 mins..obviously though it says engaging twice it probably has been pretty constant 27 min battle. Still 10 700 rounds of .303 and 3400 of 9mm gone in 27 mins..thats alot..whats your rate of fire set at? Though 92 rifles firing say 10 rounds a min thats 920 rounds a minute spent. Over 27 mins it's well gone I suppose gone I work that out at 24840 rounds if all rifles where firing 10 rounds a min for 27 mins..reduce it to 5 rounds a min which seems more reasonable than 10 your looking at 12000 rounds so yes I can imagine it being burned up in an intense firefight. Lowering the rate of fire for a weapon in the editor will help, but then you'll get less casualties.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:49 pm

ORIGINAL: wodin

Hmm..thats alot of ammo burn in 27 mins..obviously though it says engaging twice it probably has been pretty constant 27 min battle. Still 10 700 rounds of .303 and 3400 of 9mm gone in 27 mins..thats alot..whats your rate of fire set at? Though 92 rifles firing say 10 rounds a min thats 920 rounds a minute spent. Over 27 mins it's well gone I suppose gone I work that out at 24840 rounds if all rifles where firing 10 rounds a min for 27 mins..reduce it to 5 rounds a min which seems more reasonable than 10 your looking at 12000 rounds so yes I can imagine it being burned up in an intense firefight. Lowering the rate of fire for a weapon in the editor will help, but then you'll get less casualties.

Glad you did the maths for me Wodin [:D]

They are assaulting so I guess the rate of fire is auto set to max

There are 6 bren carriers in that unit, so they would be able to carry a lot of ammo!
I wonder if the ammo capacity levels for them is correct in the ESTABS?

With a total of 10 brens and a vickers thats a lot of fire power/ammo use as you say.

IF it's right I'm not really sure what to do about it?
As you know it takes so damn long with the orders delay, and stopping ect to get them to engage in the first place, and if I try to withdraw them after the 42 min order delay they will probably have another delivery of ammo anyway by then [&:]

Arjuna · Post by **Arjuna** » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:45 pm

First thing to note is that not all engagements or activities in general for that matter appear in the unit log. IIRC we don't bother recording it in the log if a similar event has occured within the last 15 or 20 minutes. So the unit could have been firing non stop.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:00 am

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

First thing to note is that not all engagements or activities in general for that matter appear in the unit log. IIRC we don't bother recording it in the log if a similar event has occured within the last 15 or 20 minutes. So the unit could have been firing non stop.

Ok mate, thanks for the info.

I think you might have to look into some kind of hand to hand "fix bayonets" casualty Estab or some kind of retreat event for future expansions, for when they run out of ammo, because these boys have been going at it in the factory, in the dark now for about an hour.

A Coy have run out as well now so we have about 250 Irish V 56 Hardened German Paras, in a hand to hand fight, in the dark in factory area.

Not something I would like to be involved in personally [:'(]

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:43 am

ORIGINAL: wodin

The casualty thing wasn't anything to do with ammo..lots of lead was flying around.

The unit may not have started the scenario with that much ammo?

If you sent the save to Dave then he will be checking it out..obviously if it happened before to you it isn't going to stop if there is a problem and if there is Dave will get to the bottom of it.

Did you check how many trucks the supply base had?

I did notice they where calling in supply every hour..so obviously they weren't getting that much each time. Again now Dave knows don't worry to much about it.

Did you check how many trucks the supply base had?

Yes mate I posted a picture of it back in post RE: Build 4.4.257 Feedback - 2/22/2013 1:56:57 PM

I know Dave is aware of it now. I guess I am just trying to justify my concern, as I'm worried it's something I'm not understanding about the game, and don't want to waste any of Dave's valuable time. So the more info I post on the issue, the more chance of someone else spotting my possible mistake.

I might start another thread, and treat it as kind of a mini AAR just related to issues I am having as I play rather than spam this post with pics etc.

Phoenix100 · Post by **Phoenix100** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:47 am

It's great you pick up these things Daz. Like Wodin said, all these discoveries make the gamne better. No one can object, for sure, and - again, as Jason remarked - they're big boys now. If they haven't time or don't want then they won't do anything with it. For me all these things you pick up on are definitely worth mentioning. You have to play the game in a really keen, detailed way (as a real fan does, indeed) to notice these things that you're seeing. I certainly miss them! Well done.

It wasn't the trucks, no - I saw that - you had plenty of them.

10,000 rounds in 20 mins - wow! yet it could easily be that, if you check the maths.

Arjuna · Post by **Arjuna** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:46 am

Ten MGs each firing 20rd per minute would go through 4,000rds in twenty minutes. Add say 100 rifles each firing 4 rpm would be 400 x 20 = 8,000 rds. Total 303 expenditure in 20 minutes of firing = 12,000 rds.

Arjuna · Post by **Arjuna** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:49 am

BTW the ave rifleman carried 60 rds of rifle ammo on him and half that again at the unit reserve - ie on the back of the jeep. Let's be generous and say 100 rds. It's just enough for a 25 minute firefight.

navwarcol · Post by **navwarcol** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:46 am

The ammo thing I had seen from when I first got the game (a few days before the last build). The numbers do add up, and having seen some real firefights and the copious amounts of ammunition used in just 5-10 minutes, I could not complain about the game's data. Usually what I am trying to do is separate before the AI does its plan my own reserve from each btn, and from each level above btn... which in a large scenario leaves me with "micromanaging" at worst 8-10 units. These become the units that step in to continue the push where their pixel-brothers run low on ammunition, etc... This way the units that need resupply are not at the front in contact, when resupply comes also. I would like it if the AI did something like this also inside the individual companies, but that may be asking a lot.

Anyway..sorry for rambling.
Dave, I do notice one other issue that did not happen before...units in direct contact with each other, less than 100m away, sometimes disappear, even in areas with no concealment factored in.. " open areas". This could be because they are hunkering down during the firefight, but cannot imagine if an entire company is doing this at the same time.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:10 pm

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

BTW the ave rifleman carried 60 rds of rifle ammo on him and half that again at the unit reserve - ie on the back of the jeep. Let's be generous and say 100 rds. It's just enough for a 25 minute firefight.

What about the bren carriers, and the Vickers Dave?

They must surely be the main culprits here for the ammo expenditure?
I have been looking on the internet to see what info I can find about the ammo stocks for the bren carriers.

I've found some great sites but nothing so far about how much they carried. I know they are only small and being mechanised infantry have to fit 4 guys plus equipment in the back, so not masses of room for extra ammo as I imagined.

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:35 pm

ORIGINAL: navwarcol

The ammo thing I had seen from when I first got the game (a few days before the last build). The numbers do add up, and having seen some real firefights and the copious amounts of ammunition used in just 5-10 minutes, I could not complain about the game's data. Usually what I am trying to do is separate before the AI does its plan my own reserve from each btn, and from each level above btn... which in a large scenario leaves me with "micromanaging" at worst 8-10 units. These become the units that step in to continue the push where their pixel-brothers run low on ammunition, etc... This way the units that need resupply are not at the front in contact, when resupply comes also. I would like it if the AI did something like this also inside the individual companies, but that may be asking a lot.

Anyway..sorry for rambling.
Dave, I do notice one other issue that did not happen before...units in direct contact with each other, less than 100m away, sometimes disappear, even in areas with no concealment factored in.. " open areas". This could be because they are hunkering down during the firefight, but cannot imagine if an entire company is doing this at the same time.

This way the units that need resupply are not at the front in contact, when resupply comes also. I would like it if the AI did something like this also inside the individual companies, but that may be asking a lot.

How is the game modelled for supplying units in close contact?

I have always assumed that unless you get the yellow message with a % of the convoy lost, that when you got a "Resupply Arrived" message in the log you got 100% of what was sent, or you got no Resupply Arrived message at all.

Can you actually get a "Resupply Arrived" message, without a warning that you only received a fraction of what was sent, if indeed you only get a tiny bit of that supply, as per the query I posted earlier in the thread, ref only getting a few tins of beans when I wanted ammo?

dazkaz15 · Post by **dazkaz15** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:17 pm

Ok I have re-read the Game Manuel again, and the only thing I can see about supply interdiction is as posted below.

To reduce the processor load, the transport column is not managed like a regular unit. So it does not move along the route each minute. Rather, when its scheduled Supply Transport Event occurs it reviews the situation at that time and determines whether or not it can get through to the unit. If not, it
165
will abandon and try to return to the Base. If it can get through, it determines any losses due to enemy threats to the route and deducts these from the assigned personnel, transport and supplies. It then delivers the supplies to the unit ( converting ammo into actual rounds as appropriate ).
At this time you will receive a message on screen ( and in the Message Log ) informing you of the delivery. This will be a routine message if all goes well. However, if it suffers losses it will be upgraded to Urgent and if it’s abandoned altogether it will be Flash.

It makes no mention of a reduced supply delivery for units in contact with the enemy, only for attrition to the supply coulomb on route.

If anyone can find the relevant bit about not being able to supply to troops in contact please post it to put me out of my misery [;)]

It does however mention this:

Rationing
If there is insufficient supplies to meet all current requirements or there is insufficient handling capacity ( ie the ability to load the supplies on the trucks ) then a Depot may ration or limit the amounts it dispatches to its drawing units. When this occurs each request will only receive a proportion of its requirements. Emergency requests will get a greater proportion than routine requests.

Which could be relevent to my base which was cut off from the SEP at the time of delivery.

Just wish it could have been .303 not tins of beans[:'(]

Just wait till I get my hands on that QM [:-]

jimcarravall · Post by **jimcarravall** » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:37 pm

Stowage planning for vehicles is defined by weight more than space. Allowances would be made for racks for projectiles issued in one unit per shot quantities for main weapons, and the remaining weight allowance being assigned as the vehicle crew individual weapons (e.g. pistols, carbines, rifles, light machine guns, medium machine guns, heavy machine gun).

The stowage for crew individual weapons ammo was organized around the standard issue package for the assigned weapons (e.g. size / weight of clips, small weapon ammo boxes, heavy weapon standard ammo boxes, etc.).

Aside from defining the package handling size for racks or nooks and how accessible the areas needed to be to the crew, (ammo stowage on the bottom of the chassis might be forbidden in the design), space was left somewhere to handle that weight.

Based on that, I found a Bren 2-pounder variant ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Carrier ) which has stowage for 112 rounds. If issued in standard boxes, it would be roughly 95 percent of the ammo weight assigned to the vehicle. If the rounds required perculiar racks to make them accessible, then the round weight and rack weight would be 95 percent of the assigned ammo load weight for the vehicle.

The remaining weight would be allocated among crew-served secondary weapons.

Hope this helps.