Daz's Crazy Concepts

[dazkaz15]

I have thrown together an idea for how to handle supplies for future versions of the game, as it's a hot topic at the moment.

All the supplies would be handled by the default method we have now for the majority of the time, however if you have a supply problem with one, or more of your units, this will give you more control over the route it takes, and give you more interaction in trying to get supplies through to it.

Option 1
This would allow you to create a simple line that has added waypoints to enable you to adjust the route that the supplies will take to that unit. the route will convert back to default once the supply column has got back to the depot or you move more that 2km from the position you set it in to stop you from having to remember to re rout it every time you move.

Option 2

This will create a supply column at the base location that will be a spawned counter on the map that you will have to look after, and get it to within range of your unit that needs the supplies.
It would have a range circle to indicate how close it needs to get to manhandle the supplies to the unit.
The number of vehicles, men and supplies will be removed from the depot, and any making it back successfully will be added back into the depot again and he counter will be removed from the map.

So what do you think?
Feedback is most welcome, good and bad [:'(]

[dazkaz15]

Option 2

[Phoenix100]

Like number 1. A lot. I can guess Dave's response, however. I believe, in the past, there have been worries about processor loads if you de-automate, to any extent, the supply process. Plus, there might be objections to the rapidity of it (given WW2 comms) - allowing you to rapidly get round the enemy's painstaking work in interdicting you. That could be addressed by putting in substantial delays, perhaps, but then it might not be worth it. Also, I suppose this is considering it mainly from the pov of the commander trying to keep supply. But it won't be long before players are complaining (again - I've done it myself in the past) that you can't cut supply in the game.

[dazkaz15]

I was wondering if the processor load issue would come up as I have seen it mentioned in the past.

My theory on that issue is, this game was developed years ago. Most people's home systems have improved dramatically since then.
My main counter to that however is you warn people that creating too many manual supply routes may affect performance.
As this is just an option not a default people with very old systems will just have to live with the way supply is handled now, which will be the default method of supply, or upgrade their systems to take advantage of the new features.

If you constantly pander to the past, how will you ever move on in the future?
The bottom line is you will still be able to play with supplies the way they are now, but if your system can handle it, you have a bunch of new features at your disposal.

As for

But it won't be long before players are complaining (again - I've done it myself in the past) that you can't cut supply in the game.

I would rather have it that I was able to realistically set a different supply route, than have the AI constantly report that my supply column has taken 100% damage, because it keeps sending it down the main road instead of the secondary roads, or the longer back route.

[Arjuna]

Daz,

How much would you pay for that feature?

[Phoenix100]

How much do you need, Dave? Me and Daz will do a fundraise.

I can give you 300 euros. Any use?

[Phoenix100]

As for processor loads, Daz, my machine is decent (i5 @ 3.2) and it struggles in the big scenarios. Or, at least, gameplay isn't smooth (that doesn't much matter, of course). As has been remarked before - the nature of it creates bottlenecks in the processor (regardless, really, of things like memory). When they multi-thread it I assume more will be possible.

I think, anyway, we would need some ability to send out patrols (even if abstracted) to go along with this - otherwise you might just end up sending your supplies into the enemy. I would prefer some kind of click to patrol an area feature (without using an entire counter) first, actually.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Daz,

How much would you pay for that feature?

ORIGINAL: phoenix

How much do you need, Dave? Me and Daz will do a fundraise.

I can give you 300 euros. Any use?

LOL [:D]

I don't know about paying for individual feature Dave, as there usually put into an expansion pack, with a bunch of other new features, and a few new scenarios, for which I would be more than willing to pay above the usual rate, for expansion packs these days.

If money is a problem, (like it is for most of us these days) you need to increase your customer base. For that you need more exposure. It even suggests as much in some of the great reviews you got in the media.
I get all my new games from Steam these days, with the exception of this one. Love it or hate it, and I know people do in equal measures, it is doing very well for itself.
It usually has between 3 million and 5 million users online every day. What would that kind of exposure do for your sales? Anyway I'm not qualified to lecture you about the marketing of your product, I'm sure you have looked into it in depth yourself, and I think your statement was tongue in cheek?

Anyway it should be you paying me for all these wonderful ideas [:D]

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

As for processor loads, Daz, my machine is decent (i5 @ 3.2) and it struggles in the big scenarios. Or, at least, gameplay isn't smooth (that doesn't much matter, of course). As has been remarked before - the nature of it creates bottlenecks in the processor (regardless, really, of things like memory). When they multi-thread it I assume more will be possible.

I think, anyway, we would need some ability to send out patrols (even if abstracted) to go along with this - otherwise you might just end up sending your supplies into the enemy. I would prefer some kind of click to patrol an area feature (without using an entire counter) first, actually.

That's the risk you take in this Option 2 method. If you want to ensure a clear alternative route you would need to send a coy of your Bn back to check its clear, as an escort for the supplies.
The main reason behind this method is like in the example of the bridge at Arnham.
You didn't know where your supplies where being cut right? So you detach a supply column from the depot and send it along the route. It will be very similar to normal counters, and will have its own Threat LOS, so when it starts getting shot up you will then know where the problem is on your route.

[Phoenix100]

God I hope we never have to put up with Steam.

I'm sure a subscription would work better. I keep saying I'd pay. You should poll about it, Dave. See what you could raise. Judging by how many people pop up in this forum, not very many. It's the same 5 to 15 people in here all the time. Maybe 20, max? Not a very active forum, as they say. The hits are much higher, though, I note, which must be heartening. If everyone who visits paid 50pa you would do ok. If it's just us 20 or so usual suspects then the game is scuppered. 450 hits, or so, in 2 days seems to be standard for posts about game issues.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

God I hope we never have to put up with Steam.

I'm sure a subscription would work better. I keep saying I'd pay. You should poll about it, Dave. See what you could raise. Judging by how many people pop up in this forum, not very many. It's the same 5 to 15 people in here all the time. Maybe 20, max? Not a very active forum, as they say. The hits are much higher, though, I note, which must be heartening. If everyone who visits paid 50pa you would do ok. If it's just us 20 or so usual suspects then the game is scuppered. 450 hits, or so, in 2 days seems to be standard for posts about game issues.

So given the choice between Steam, or Dave having to sell his house, and move into a cardboard box, would you go with Steam [:D]

[Phoenix100]

He already did all that, Daz.

[dazkaz15]

I think you will find most people that play this kind of casual game are against subscriptions.
Is not like an MMORPG where you virtually live within the world populated with other players on a day to day basis.

I think what would work better is a lot of smaller upgrades at regular intervals, at low cost, that are included automatically when you purchase the full price version.

Try to include at least one graphical upgrade, one engine upgrade, and 2 new scenarios with each small upgrade.
I think people are more willing to pay for graphical upgrades like the equipment list concept I proposed, than they are the engine upgrades that are equally as important, and throw two new small or medium size scenarios in for good measure.

I think Dave does far too much for free.
All that formation code work he did is an example of an engine upgrade, the Depot feature I have proposed in this thread is an example of a new feature/graphical interface upgrade that people can actually see as opposed to happening under the hood.
Then just throw in two random scenarios for icing on the cake.
Of course any game breaking issues would have to be patched for free between mini expansions.

This will have the added affect of increasing the games exposure to new people, keeping existing customers interested in the product, and getting Dave out of his cardboard box home [;)]

[BletchleyGeek]

Not a crazy concept at all Daz. Being able to visualize supply routes is a quite good idea. Issuing waypoints (and route modifiers) can be very convenient, indeed, especially when planning ahead.

It can be also a very subtle way of shooting yourself in the foot [:)]

[wodin]

I'd rather the game just do all this behind the scenes, working out the best supply routes if it knows enemies are around..otherwise it's just another thing to have to deal with and I'm not sure I want too..infact to be honest it could be something that would turn me off the series. Really don't wan to have to issue waypoints and constantly monitor supply routes.

Also I'd rather the time and effort be put into the main new features in the EF game like dismounted ops, combat doctrines.

[Jafele]

I like daz "crazy" idea [:D]. Consider supply routes should be an important issue in any serious wargame.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'd rather the game just do all this behind the scenes, working out the best supply routes if it knows enemies are around..otherwise it's just another thing to have to deal with and I'm not sure I want too..infact to be honest it could be something that would turn me off the series. Really don't wan to have to issue waypoints and constantly monitor supply routes.

Also I'd rather the time and effort be put into the main new features in the EF game like dismounted ops, combat doctrines.

You wouldn't need to anything different mate.

It would be exactly as it is now for you.
It would just be an option for those of us that like to play at a higher interference level than you, if our units get out of supply, and we want to know why, or try a different route to the one the AI keeps trying in its abstracted way.

Supply is a crucial factor in war of this kind. Probably the most important one in fact, and it seems crazy just to leave it abstracted for the AI to handle, when the player can enjoy manipulating it himself if he wanted to.

“You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics.”
-- Gen Dwight D. Eisenhower

“Throughout the struggle, it was in his logistic inability to maintain his armies in the field that the enemy's fatal weakness lay. Courage his forces had in full measure, but courage was not enough. Reinforcements failed to arrive, weapons, ammunition and food alike ran short, and the dearth of fuel caused their powers of tactical mobility to dwindle to the vanishing point. In the last stages of the campaign they could do little more than wait for the Allied advance to sweep over them.”
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower, British Army Doctrine Publication, Volume 3,

Logistics (June 1996) p. 1-2
“Behind every great leader there was an even greater logistician.”
-- M. Cox
“

[Deathtreader]

Hi all,

While I do like the idea of being able to influence a supply column's route, what I would REALLY prefer are:

1/ the ability to temporarily CANCEL (in addition to just minimizing) supply runs to designated units/formations, and

2/ the ability to temporarily reassign units/formations to DIFFERENT bases when necessary. There is little worse than to have units ala scratch force defending in a town (for example) with a base and the base will only supply one (or some) of the organic defenders and lets the other non-organic defenders starve. Guess what the orphans do?? They call for supply from their organic bases who obligingly send supply columns who all die valiantly trying to breakthrough the enemy siege lines. I realize there is a difference between what infantry bases and armour bases can provide in the way of some supply type categories but surely when a non-organic unit needs food and water and/or is using the same type of ammo as the non-organic base then the unit should be allowed to draw COMMON supplies from any player assigned base.

What do others think??

Still lovin' the game though [&o]

Rob.[:)]

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader


Hi all,

While I do like the idea of being able to influence a supply column's route, what I would REALLY prefer are:

1/ the ability to temporarily CANCEL (in addition to just minimizing) supply runs to designated units/formations, and

2/ the ability to temporarily reassign units/formations to DIFFERENT bases when necessary. There is little worse than to have units ala scratch force defending in a town (for example) with a base and the base will only supply one (or some) of the organic defenders and lets the other non-organic defenders starve. Guess what the orphans do?? They call for supply from their organic bases who obligingly send supply columns who all die valiantly trying to breakthrough the enemy siege lines. I realize there is a difference between what infantry bases and armour bases can provide in the way of some supply type categories but surely when a non-organic unit needs food and water and/or is using the same type of ammo as the non-organic base then the unit should be allowed to draw COMMON supplies from any player assigned base.

What do others think??

Still lovin' the game though [&o]

Rob.[:)]

Hi Rob

1, I have already included this in my concept idea if you look closely [;)]

2, Yes I like this idea, as its another thing that happens in game in an abstracted, hard coded way, that would probably be done differently in real life.

This would only be necessary in a real emergency of course. So if you decide you need to override the default supply, as in my first or second image, what you could do is, before clicking the [create supply convoy button] is to target another supply depot, to be the source of the supplies.
This will create either a waypoint line, or a supply counter at that depot attached to your unit, that you can manipulate.
Once the supply run has got through, it would revert to the default again and re-atach your organic supply depot.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Daz,

How much would you pay for that feature?

The more I write about this particular supply concept idea the more I begin to realise, even though I know nothing about computer programming, that this feature would probably require a lot of work to, develop, integrate, test, and patch.

I've just been into Steam, and taken a look at the pricing of my second favourite game ever, Hearts of Iron 3.

They priced the last expansion "Their Finest Hour" at £8.00, I think it was about £20 when I bougt it.
They priced all their sprite packs at about 80p, I don't even use sprites. I have always used counters, and think the sprites look horrible in the game, but I still bought them [&:] Yes I know more money than sense right [:'(]
They released a music upgrade pack as well at £4 which I also got, and quite enjoy actually. I loaded the songs into Itunes, and have it playing when I play this game sometimes.
I also bought all their other expansion packs that I paid about £20 each for as they were released, but they did have quite a lot of new features.

So for this depot upgrade on its own, I guess I would be prepared to pay about £20 for.

By the way the latest expansion "Their finest Hour" was released with the Battle plan overlay map tool, which completely transformed the way you plan and play the game. It was an excellent idea, and one that would enhance this game more than any other upgrade I can think of.
You should take a look at it.