WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?
So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...
I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint
if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...
lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have
Gimme a break guys
Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak. [:)]
Pricing
-
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:25 pm
RE: Pricing
RE: Pricing
Please spare me. I'm not a "yes" man like you and most on here. And I can see by this you never worked a day in retail. Please don't BS me. I've seen it all. The way matrix/slitheine alienates its so called loyal customers is downright astounding. I often wonder how long a retail chain would last if they adopted matrix/slitheines polices. Not long I imagine. So you are saying a year and half ago I purchased a game illegally? I'm sorry this was not the "honorable " choice to make. And it's more like 22 bucks do the math.
ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser
WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?
So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...
I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint
if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...
lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have
Gimme a break guys
Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak. [:)]
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
RE: Pricing
I don't know about downloads, but purchasing - even now - a boxed version of the game somewhere else for a lower prize - or any other prize! - is not illegal. It's just as if I am purchasing PON used at any second-hand shop.
"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
RE: Pricing
Simply wow! Another "yes" man sent from above. Folks if you buy this game on a disk at at a second hand shop for a buck and believe me this game is worth no more than five bucks it is legal!! Don't let ignorance prevail.
ORIGINAL: Hotschi
I don't know about downloads, but purchasing - even now - a boxed version of the game somewhere else for a lower prize - or any other prize! - is as illegal as purchasing PON used at any second-hand shop.
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
I think Iain has pretty much covered it, but we discussed this internally at some length today, going over all the feedback here and reviewing our decisions to make sure we were doing the best we could for AGEOD and our customers, so let me review the highlights.
1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.
2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.
3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.
4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.
Regards,
- Erik
1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.
2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.
3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.
4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: rogo727
Simply wow! Another "yes" man sent from above. Folks if you buy this game on a disk at at a second hand shop for a buck and believe me this game is worth no more than five bucks it is legal!! Don't let ignorance prevail.
No "yes" man here. Just a case of bad command of the English language. Edited my post above to reflect what I really meant.
"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.
RE: Pricing
So what you are saying in general that you are planning to sell more games at a higher price to support this engine than at a lower price at pretty much all other sites? (Chuckling right now). Just trying to understand your logic here. Support further development of what Erik? This game or others??? Do you have plans in works for a dcl of this game? Even if its just "pen to the paper" say so. If not just say we want our investment back on this game. Be honest with your customers and don't dance around the subject like a politician you know better than that. No I'm sorry this is not a 40-50 dollar game. You are demanding prices that apply to 2010 not 2013. I wouldn't pay more than five bucks for this game. It's fun but three years old and getting older. It's like demanding full retail on a 2010 car that has 75'000 miles on it in 2013. I wonder how many customers you would find to buy that car? But wait if you would buy this car at that price you would ensure that the maker of the car would always have a paycheck? I am sorry that the maker of that car sold thousands just like her and a fraction of what you are charging now. No you have not really covered anything really. I can't be the only one who feels this way and by judging the PON thread it is deadly silent. I feel justified.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I think Iain has pretty much covered it, but we discussed this internally at some length today, going over all the feedback here and reviewing our decisions to make sure we were doing the best we could for AGEOD and our customers, so let me review the highlights.
1. We set the price for release on Matrix and Slitherine based on the same price AGEOD had been charging through their online store. We matched their price, we did not exceed it. That's the part of the price-matching which I was referring to earlier. Per our pricing, if this were a new release this would be more like a $40 or $50 game, but we matched the existing price for the AGEOD store.
2. The strategy that Paradox was pursuing with the AGEOD titles was indeed getting them out to many, many distributors and they were being sold at much lower prices in many of those places. We completely understand why this looks like a positive thing from the customer's perspective. The problem is, this was actually hurting AGEOD - the result of all that activity and low prices meant that they were not making enough revenue. Our goal is to allow AGEOD to thrive and develop games for a long time to come. Those revenues are not now going to us or to AGEOD in all cases - we're still finding out about some of the places where the games were previously sent and working out what to do. We will honor and support all sales through any distributor, but if your interest is in supporting us or AGEOD please realize that purchasing from the AGEOD, Matrix or Slitherine stores is the best way to support future development.
3. The main reason for our pricing is to make sure that the developers within this niche, who make the kinds of games we all like to play, remain active and financially viable. It is our job as a publisher (and a developer as well) to make money for them and for us, which leads to the virtuous cycle where those games we all enjoy continue to get made. We have a lot of data, including data from AGEOD, that supports this pricing strategy as the best one for the health of this niche.
4. At $24.99 Pride of Nations is still very good value for the gaming dollar.
Regards,
- Erik
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
-
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:25 pm
RE: Pricing
Ha ha , ok I guess I sorta had that attack coming, rereading my post it sounded way more personal than I meant, was supposed be be a little more tongue in cheek, pointing out the ironies of life etc..ORIGINAL: rogo727
Please spare me. I'm not a "yes" man like you and most on here. And I can see by this you never worked a day in retail. Please don't BS me. I've seen it all. The way matrix/slitheine alienates its so called loyal customers is downright astounding. I often wonder how long a retail chain would last if they adopted matrix/slitheines polices. Not long I imagine. So you are saying a year and half ago I purchased a game illegally? I'm sorry this was not the "honorable " choice to make. And it's more like 22 bucks do the math.ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser
WOW , with customers like these , who needs enemies?
So , if I understand, Slith/matrix OWNS these games now and has set a price point so they can keep the developer alive for new games, as well as continue to support the old games ( and that support includes tech support which aint free)
As of yesterday, ONLY they own the games and anyone else selling them is doing so illegally.
However, they are saying even if you go out now and buy it illegally, they wont stop you BUT will still provide full tech support even if they dont see a dime from your illegal purchase...
I see that "lack of choice " as common complaint
if you bought legally for 1.99 back in the day, good for you, smart comsumer choice. You dont need to chose on the new price , you own the game and why post? Unless its to brag...or you are the advocate champion of the poor sad wargamer whom cant afford an xtra 10 bucks for a game...
lets look at the choices you have
*buy the game from Slith/Matrix or dont (the only honourable choice)
*rush out and buy it cheap while the gettings good, even though you know its illegal.
* and my favorite, rush out , buy it illegally and then post what youve done here so you can show everyone what high moral fiber you have
Gimme a break guys
Also, every penny you deny Aegeod is another setback to a strategic level 30 Years War engine I hope to see before I croak. [:)]
As for the Yes man/ retail comments
I certainly am a yes man every time for women, “hey TGM, want some of this ?“ Hell Yes!
As for retail, done it, hoped I earned the right to never go back.
(and for the record I have never owned a single Ageod game, its really the because I like strategic or tactical, the grey area of Operational I have a hard time with..)
PON is different(strategic) and I likely will purchase it. Regardless of ones opinions, it really does look like its worth about 24 bucks… The anger over the pricing of GAMES is just beyond my simplistic beliefs system, ya know, live free or die, good vs evil, capitolism, etc.
RE: Pricing
Let me ask you this. If you bought a product for 1.99 then a year and half later wanted to buy the same product for 24.99. That's fine fore collectables and coins but not for computer games. Enough said? Or do you want to debate this further ? It looks like there is a committee of "three"here.
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p

ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser
Ha ha , ok I guess I sorta had that attack coming, rereading my post it sounded way more personal than I meant, was supposed be be a little more tongue in cheek, pointing out the ironies of life etc..ORIGINAL: rogo727
Please spare me. I'm not a "yes" man like you and most on here. And I can see by this you never worked a day in retail. Please don't BS me. I've seen it all. The way matrix/slitheine alienates its so called loyal customers is downright astounding. I often wonder how long a retail chain would last if they adopted matrix/slitheines polices. Not long I imagine. So you are saying a year and half ago I purchased a game illegally? I'm sorry this was not the "honorable " choice to make. And it's more like 22 bucks do the math.ORIGINAL: The Gray Mouser
As for the Yes man/ retail comments
I certainly am a yes man every time for women, “hey TGM, want some of this ?“ Hell Yes!
As for retail, done it, hoped I earned the right to never go back.
(and for the record I have never owned a single Ageod game, its really the because I like strategic or tactical, the grey area of Operational I have a hard time with..)
PON is different(strategic) and I likely will purchase it. Regardless of ones opinions, it really does look like its worth about 24 bucks… The anger over the pricing of GAMES is just beyond my simplistic beliefs system, ya know, live free or die, good vs evil, capitolism, etc.
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
We matched their price, we did not exceed it.
In the EU you have exceeded it. The AGEOD headline price includes VAT (and their prices always have), you add it on afterwards.
ORIGINAL: Wolfe
And I am pretty certain that when some or as in this case probably all of the intended customers are liable to pay VAT (i.e. is a consumer rather than a business) stating or advertising a price that is exclusive of VAT is in contravention of HMRC and ASA requirements..
Sadly, no, at least as far as VAT law goes. The VAT figure is shown as an identifiable figure, as is the gross price before you hit the pay button as it is on the receipt. I've banged on about the headline price here for years, but for some reason whichever online store Matrix happens to be dealing with also happens to be the only one incapable of showing the expected gross headline price to EU customers.
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
Hi Rogo,
As explained above, our plan is for many, many more games from AGEOD by virtue of keeping them in the business of making games. We're in the process of adding the rest of the AGEOD catalog to our store and as AGEOD is now part of the Slitherine Group we are all funding future development of AGEOD games.
Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me. What has replaced PON? Since when is three years old for a niche wargame "old"? Sure, if other developers were making the equivalent of PON II, PON III and PON IV every year I would agree, but that's not happening. The reason is that these kinds of games serve a niche market which is underserved by the larger publishers because it does not fit their business models.
Using your car analogy, it applies well to a mass-produced car, but the car industry similarly has niches and specialized cars produced for a limited market. Those neither follow the same pricing nor the same depreciation as the mass produced one size fits all kind.
Regards,
- Erik
ORIGINAL: rogo727
So what you are saying in general that you are planning to sell more games at a higher price to support this engine than at a lower price at pretty much all other sites? (Chuckling right now). Just trying to understand your logic here. Support further development of what Erik? This game or others??? Do you have plans in works for a dcl of this game? Even if its just "pen to the paper" say so. If not just say we want our investment back on this game. Be honest with your customers and don't dance around the subject like a politician you know better than that. No I'm sorry this is not a 40-50 dollar game. You are demanding prices that apply to 2010 not 2013. I wouldn't pay more than five bucks for this game. It's fun but three years old and getting older. It's like demanding full retail on a 2010 car that has 75'000 miles on it in 2013. I wonder how many customers you would find to buy that car? But wait if you would buy this car at that price you would ensure that the maker of the car would always have a paycheck? I am sorry that the maker of that car sold thousands just like her and a fraction of what you are charging now. No you have not really covered anything really. I can't be the only one who feels this way and by judging the PON thread it is deadly silent. I feel justified.
As explained above, our plan is for many, many more games from AGEOD by virtue of keeping them in the business of making games. We're in the process of adding the rest of the AGEOD catalog to our store and as AGEOD is now part of the Slitherine Group we are all funding future development of AGEOD games.
Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me. What has replaced PON? Since when is three years old for a niche wargame "old"? Sure, if other developers were making the equivalent of PON II, PON III and PON IV every year I would agree, but that's not happening. The reason is that these kinds of games serve a niche market which is underserved by the larger publishers because it does not fit their business models.
Using your car analogy, it applies well to a mass-produced car, but the car industry similarly has niches and specialized cars produced for a limited market. Those neither follow the same pricing nor the same depreciation as the mass produced one size fits all kind.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: rogo727
Let me ask you this. If you bought a product for 1.99 then a year and half later wanted to buy the same product for 24.99. That's fine fore collectables and coins but not for computer games. Enough said? Or do you want to debate this further ? It looks like there is a committee of "three"here.
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p
Hi Rogo,
Please keep the discussion civil and constructive. I'm not sure why you feel the need to make this personal and concoct imaginary conversations instead of reading what's actually been posted.
Do you honestly believe we are lying?
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me.
90%? It was released at mid-price and was never $40-50. I suspect a large part of that was it's launch up against Vicky 2 that Paradox had released only a few months earlier so PoN's 'value' in that sense was prejudiced from the start. Niche wargames are no different from anything else in that the only meaningful of measure of financial value is what someone is willing to pay for them.
RE: Pricing
And you wanting to charge me 90% more for a game that's three years old defies all logic. Once again you dance around the subject matter. Business models Erik ? Please don't BS me. I paid 1.99 for this game a year and half ago. Now the exact same game a year and half later you want to charge me 24.99 for. I won't buy it. But at the risk of being banned I won't say any more.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Hi Rogo,
ORIGINAL: rogo727
So what you are saying in general that you are planning to sell more games at a higher price to support this engine than at a lower price at pretty much all other sites? (Chuckling right now). Just trying to understand your logic here. Support further development of what Erik? This game or others??? Do you have plans in works for a dcl of this game? Even if its just "pen to the paper" say so. If not just say we want our investment back on this game. Be honest with your customers and don't dance around the subject like a politician you know better than that. No I'm sorry this is not a 40-50 dollar game. You are demanding prices that apply to 2010 not 2013. I wouldn't pay more than five bucks for this game. It's fun but three years old and getting older. It's like demanding full retail on a 2010 car that has 75'000 miles on it in 2013. I wonder how many customers you would find to buy that car? But wait if you would buy this car at that price you would ensure that the maker of the car would always have a paycheck? I am sorry that the maker of that car sold thousands just like her and a fraction of what you are charging now. No you have not really covered anything really. I can't be the only one who feels this way and by judging the PON thread it is deadly silent. I feel justified.
As explained above, our plan is for many, many more games from AGEOD by virtue of keeping them in the business of making games. We're in the process of adding the rest of the AGEOD catalog to our store and as AGEOD is now part of the Slitherine Group we are all funding future development of AGEOD games.
Your perception that a niche wargame somehow decreases in value by 90% over three years makes no sense to me. What has replaced PON? Since when is three years old for a niche wargame "old"? Sure, if other developers were making the equivalent of PON II, PON III and PON IV every year I would agree, but that's not happening. The reason is that these kinds of games serve a niche market which is underserved by the larger publishers because it does not fit their business models.
Using your car analogy, it applies well to a mass-produced car, but the car industry similarly has niches and specialized cars produced for a limited market. Those neither follow the same pricing nor the same depreciation as the mass produced one size fits all kind.
Regards,
- Erik
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: Hertston
90%? It was released at mid-price and was never $40-50. I suspect a large part of that was it's launch up against Vicky 2 that Paradox had released only a few months earlier so PoN's 'value' in that sense was prejudiced from the start. Niche wargames are no different from anything else in that the only meaningful of measure of financial value is what someone is willing to pay for them.
I read Rogo's post above as saying that even if it had been $50 three years ago, he wouldn't pay more than $5 for it now.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Pricing
Just makes me wonder if you did any research on what this game is being sold for now. I'm guessing not. I said this before but a good company improves with negative comments. They grow very little with positive comments. I just want you to improve because I love wargames and I want you to grow as a company.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
ORIGINAL: rogo727
Let me ask you this. If you bought a product for 1.99 then a year and half later wanted to buy the same product for 24.99. That's fine fore collectables and coins but not for computer games. Enough said? Or do you want to debate this further ? It looks like there is a committee of "three"here.
Mr. E. hay mr I what do you think we should charge for this game?
Mr. I. . I don't know how much do you think we can get out of a three year old game?
Mr. E. I dont know how about 40-50?
Mr. I. That seems steep but we do want to go to Orlando this year...
mr. P. we better lock this thread if people found out they could buy this game for 1.99 All hell will happen. We want people to buy this game!
Mr. I. How about 39.99
Mr. E. holy sh@t 1.99!!!!! How about 29.99
Mr. I. What about 24.99 and promise the people a new dcl and patch?
Mr.E. would that work? I can delay a patch and dcl I'm really good at that.
Mr.I. Yes!!! I will promise an iPad version that I of course have no intention of delivering! Just like I did with panzer corps!!
Mr. P. your a genius mr I !!!! But then again we are from the same country!
Mr. E. I will lock this thread if it gets out of control and ban rogo727!
Mr. I. That will show him!!!
Mr. I. Agreed. Make it happen.
Mr. E see you in Orlando mr. I AND P
Mr. I. Take care see you then
Mr. p
Hi Rogo,
Please keep the discussion civil and constructive. I'm not sure why you feel the need to make this personal and concoct imaginary conversations instead of reading what's actually been posted.
Do you honestly believe we are lying?
Regards,
- Erik
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
Hi Rogo,
This doesn't make sense to me. I'm not making you pay anything for the game. We've simply set a price and you are free to pay or not pay, that's entirely your choice. If you bought it for $1.99 a year and a half ago, good for you. However, I am saying the game is worth at least $24.99 and that at $1.99 the developer was not getting enough revenue to make more games like this. The question I have for you is, do you honestly believe this is a $1.99 game and that at $1.99 there are enough people interested in it that more games like it will be made?
Regards,
- Erik
ORIGINAL: rogo727
And you wanting to charge me 90% more for a game that's three years old defies all logic. Once again you dance around the subject matter. Business models Erik ? Please don't BS me. I paid 1.99 for this game a year and half ago. Now the exact same game a year and half later you want to charge me 24.99 for. I won't buy it. But at the risk of being banned I won't say any more.
This doesn't make sense to me. I'm not making you pay anything for the game. We've simply set a price and you are free to pay or not pay, that's entirely your choice. If you bought it for $1.99 a year and a half ago, good for you. However, I am saying the game is worth at least $24.99 and that at $1.99 the developer was not getting enough revenue to make more games like this. The question I have for you is, do you honestly believe this is a $1.99 game and that at $1.99 there are enough people interested in it that more games like it will be made?
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Pricing
Yes it's an old game. Three years ago I would have paid more. I probably could go to office max and buy this games for 4.99.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
ORIGINAL: Hertston
90%? It was released at mid-price and was never $40-50. I suspect a large part of that was it's launch up against Vicky 2 that Paradox had released only a few months earlier so PoN's 'value' in that sense was prejudiced from the start. Niche wargames are no different from anything else in that the only meaningful of measure of financial value is what someone is willing to pay for them.
I read Rogo's post above as saying that even if it had been $50 three years ago, he wouldn't pay more than $5 for it now.
Regards,
- Erik
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
- Erik Rutins
- Posts: 39652
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Vermont, USA
- Contact:
RE: Pricing
ORIGINAL: rogo727
Just makes me wonder if you did any research on what this game is being sold for now. I'm guessing not. I said this before but a good company improves with negative comments. They grow very little with positive comments. I just want you to improve because I love wargames and I want you to grow as a company.
That was not my job on this release, but I think it's fair to say that we didn't realize just how much discounting had gone on with this release and many of the other AGEOD releases. I think AGEOD themselves did not see the entirety of it.
I agree with you that constructive criticism is a key part of improvement. We do listen and your comments and those of others in this forum received a hearing inside the company today, with reflection on possible alternatives. We're posting here to explain our position, not to BS you.
This is a somewhat difficult situation as we are adding games to our store that are fully aimed at our niche, but have been sent out to the mainstream distribution channels with all that means in terms of pricing - it turns out it's been all over the map. Would you set the new price to the lowest price ever in a sale, the lowest constant price, the median, the highest? We still think the bottom line is that we need to make sure more AGEOD games are made and we honestly believe based on everything we've seen that matching the existing AGEOD price and in the process correcting a pricing policy that was not helping AGEOD is better than continuing on a path that was not working.
Regards,
- Erik
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/
Freedom is not Free.
RE: Pricing
Fine yes it's worth more than 1.99. 24.99 no. Erik. It's going on three and half years old. I still have it on my my laptop. Let me ask you this? Do you have any dcls or a major upgrade for this game in the next three months? Then I could see the 24.99 tag on it. Also just booted this up. I don't see a matrix/slitherine symble anywhere.
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Hi Rogo,
ORIGINAL: rogo727
And you wanting to charge me 90% more for a game that's three years old defies all logic. Once again you dance around the subject matter. Business models Erik ? Please don't BS me. I paid 1.99 for this game a year and half ago. Now the exact same game a year and half later you want to charge me 24.99 for. I won't buy it. But at the risk of being banned I won't say any more.
This doesn't make sense to me. I'm not making you pay anything for the game. We've simply set a price and you are free to pay or not pay, that's entirely your choice. If you bought it for $1.99 a year and a half ago, good for you. However, I am saying the game is worth at least $24.99 and that at $1.99 the developer was not getting enough revenue to make more games like this. The question I have for you is, do you honestly believe this is a $1.99 game and that at $1.99 there are enough people interested in it that more games like it will be made?
Regards,
- Erik
"I thank God that I was warring on the gridirons of the midwest and not the battlefields of Europe"
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943
Nile Kinnick 1918-1943