Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the Mediterranean

[Drex]

You don't need a German carrier when the Vichy French had the carrier Bearn. It was kept in the French West Indies(?)but wonder if the French got out of Mers-el-Kebir before the Brits caught them in Harbor? The Germans don't have a naval presence in the Med and don't need to when the French and Italian Navies outnumber the Brits. The French alone had 77 subs and the Italians even more. French had 7BBs and the Italians 6.

[pasternakski]

Originally posted by Drex
You don't need a German carrier when the Vichy French had the carrier Bearn. It was kept in the French West Indies(?)but wonder if the French got out of Mers-el-Kebir before the Brits caught them in Harbor? The Germans don't have a naval presence in the Med and don't need to when the French and Italian Navies outnumber the Brits. The French alone had 77 subs and the Italians even more. French had 7BBs and the Italians 6.

Some of the great "what ifs" and "fun boats" that would enrich this game. Just think of how the Taranto airstrike would have to be built into (or out of) the scenarios.

Agonize as the Germans over the Crete operation. Chew your fingernails as the desperate air and surface battles develop while the Fallschirmjaegers fight grimly to seize their objectives. Struggle bravely as the British with inferior resources and impossible strategic considerations to bring the war to the enemy.

I tell ya, brothers, this one has it all.

Need I even mention the invasion of Malta? How about the chance to command those elegantly beautiful white ships of the Regia Marina?

[Drex]

This was brought up in an early thread and obviously won't go away. the Med has everything: naval battles, air battles, sub battles(including midget and frogman attacks), the precursor to Pearl Harbor (Taranto), massive parachute drops (Crete: wonder if it had been an shoreline invasion?), infantry battles in North Aftrica, Greece, Syria,Malta, maybe Turkey if the Axis is winning. Its very exciting if it can be done.

[bradfordkay]

It was someone at 2by3 who mentioned last spring that they were interested in creating a MEd theatre game based on the UV engine, IF UV sales warrant the continued developement of the engine.

As for Mr Frag's statement that the Mediterranean theatre was not a naval campaign, he has much to learn about that theatre. All shipments to north africa went over the sea. Yes, the Axis tried some air supply, but as we all know from playing UV, air supply is not going to support an army. It was of crucial importance to the British to neutralize the Axis fleets in order to allow the shorter supply route through the Med (as opposed to sending them around the Cape of Good Hope). The air bases in Malta proved to be a major thorn in the side of the Axis attempts to keep the Africa Korps supplied, and proved difficult to supply itself (read the classic story of the tanker Ohio to learn just how much damage a ship can take and still reach its destination).

Both the battles for Greece and Crete resulted in major evacuation attempts for the Royal Navy.

In many ways, the Mediterranean Theatre requires a studied application of the combined arms approach to warfare, an approach that is the heart of the UV system. If you can't get the needed supplies to either the 8th Army or Afrika Korps, then you can expect to see your ground forces reeling in defeat.

I am very much looking forward to the expansion of the UV engine into the Med. I would expect that the ground combat engine is going to be improved to handle the CBI theatre for WITP anyway, and so I am sure that it will translate over to the Med as well. I can't wait to try the whole campaign.

[pasternakski]

This narrative may pique your interest in playing a game based on these tremendously desperate times (it's from www.regiamarina.net/):

[Mr.Frag]

bradfordkay,

Remember that the entire Italian Navy was held in check by a bunch of Fairey Swordfish, probably the most famous torpedo bomber in history (It also happened to bring about the death of the Bismarck). The attack on Taranto has actually been credited as giving Yamamoto the concept for his attack on Pearl Harbor the following year. Italy had little fuel and no radar. It lost at every turn of the war yet for all intensive purposes, it was the dominant naval power in the Med.

One forgets that the reason the Wasp was late turning up in our game is that it was busy bringing Spitfires to Malta.

Thirteen convoys fought their way into Malta under heavy air attack from August 1940 through January 1943. 13!!! thats it! Exciting eh? America comes into the picture Nov 8th, 1942 and basically ends it right there although it took some time to crush Rommel's Afrika Korps and send them packing.

The premise of sitting in Malta, and doing nothing much except get hammered by a highly skilled air corps (Fliegerkorps X) just doesn't really appeal to me. With the existing UV system, Malta would fold after 2 days of bombing and the game would end.

Rather exciting eh?

Malta is 58 miles from Sicily. 58!!! so, thats 2 hexes in UV? Boy, going to be tough to read the names as they'll overlap

A 24 hour turn when dealing with distances of 58 miles is just plain silly. UV's engine is for epic scales, not for tactical distances.

With the political silliness and poor command, you might just have some form of game, but to make it anywhere near realistic would involve major handicapping of players so they couldn't use the assets they have anywhere near the way they use them in UV.

To each their own I guess, not a game I'd be buying. UV doesn't suit the scale and radical changes to the scale would completely upset most of the code used for other things. I doubt that any credible AI could be built into the game, and although a fair percentage of folks are PBEM, there is a much larger audience that is not that Matrix would like to make money off of...

Btw: please don't assume that people don't know things just because something doesn't appeal to them

[Veer]

Med is a good idea, but there are problems:

1) The Med campaign wasn't a single campaign - like the South pacific was. There are several distinct phases, and for the brits and Germans at least ships and subs were withdrawn and then reassigned. As current barring the player sending ships back, there is no withdrawal mechnasim.

2) Land Combat played a much more Important role in the med than it did in the south pacific. North Africa, Greece, Crete, Sicily... In the UV land Combat attacking forces need a 2-1 superiority in numbers to 'win'. Blitzkreig possible? Crete possible? No.

Thus the land combat aspect of it will have to be handled 'outside' the game. If the focus is on the naval battles (which will more often than not be LBA vs the british navy, not ship vs ship) the focus will have to be only on the naval aspect.

Trying to cover the entire Med from '40 to '43 will be a more of a WITP type of game than UV.

[Veer]

Try this link, some usefull imformation:

Naval and Air war in the Med

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[Veer]

Found this little Gem:

"1941: Feb 18 - In a daring operation, Luftwaffe’s 4./KG4 bombers drop mines in the Suez Canal. The Canal would be closed for several weeks."

Who wants to bet that in any UV-Med game, both the Canal and Gibralter will be permanently closed!:p

[Raverdave]

So many what ifs with the UV MED game........Can the poms close the entrance to the MED? Can the Germans break through? What would have happened if the invasion of Crete had failed? What would have happen if Greece held? *Drool drool drool*

[Veer]

Originally posted by Raverdave
So many what ifs with the UV MED game........Can the poms close the entrance to the MED? Can the Germans break through? What would have happened if the invasion of Crete had failed? What would have happen if Greece held? *Drool drool drool*

paah. All those plae into insignifacne in face of the sheer joy of having a few FW's and 110's to deal with those B17's.

Ofcourse, not to mention Spitfires and Hurricanes instead of p-39s on the other side too.

[Mr.Frag]

Now THIS is a plane worthy of respect! None of these newfangled contraptions for me!

[bradfordkay]

"The happenings in the Med are rather short in nature unless one includes a much bigger troop level element to the game, it really wasn't a major naval conflict. Supplies didn't have to flow from transports really."


"As for Mr Frag's statement that the Mediterranean theatre was not a naval campaign, he has much to learn about that theatre. All shipments to north africa went over the sea."

"Btw: please don't assume that people don't know things just because something doesn't appeal to them."

I did not assume that you knew little about the theatre because you were uninterested in the game as such, but rather because of your statement that it was not a major naval conflict and that supplies did not have to flow from transports. How else could the allies get any troops or supplies to the theatre? I rather doubt that the Vichy French were going to allow us to offload supplies in Bordeaux for transshipment to the Med... ALL allied troops and supplies came into this theatre by ship.

Yes, the Med naval campaign was rather short. I contend that this was due more to superior British naval training (especially Officer training) than due to lack of opposition. There were some very nervous moments in this campaign for the Royal Navy. Yes, after the North African campaign ends there will be little glamour in the naval campaign, but that's not to say that the early years (1940-42) will not create quite a good game.
After all, 2by3 decided not to continue UV into 1944, even though the Japanese still had troops in the area...

[Snigbert]

I dont think the scale of the Med is wrong for 24 hour turns. It isnt too different from UV, actually.

From Gibraltar to Palestine is approximately 2000 miles, which at 30 miles per hex is about 67 hexes.

From the Southernmost point of the Med, in Libya, to Northernmost point of the Adriatic is about 1000 miles, which at 30 miles per hex is 34 hexes. I'm not sure how far they would make a map for a med game extend in each direction, but I'm sure it would include North Africa, some of the Middle East and it might stretch out to the Atlantic as well. This could easily add 10 additional hexes in each direction making it 87 by 54 or something like that.

The map of UV is something like 75 hexes by 60 hexes.

Also, the idea of 2by3 working on a Med game isnt a rumor or some idea tossed around in a thread, they stated their intention to create that as the 3rd game in the series on the 2by3 Games homepage.

[Cap Mandrake]

Whew....these UV mods are a bear


You have to admit it would be cool. German Fallschirmjager and Luftwaffe.....British surface vessels and the Ark Royal.....Greek Irregualrs....the Eye-Ties.....fortress Malta.....Free French...etc etc.


Well....at least the map is done

[Raverdave]

.......and Condors and Stuka's and Stringbags and Gladiators and Ju88s and HE 111s and Wellingtons and Sunderlands. *Drool*

AND I still get to play with Aussie ships and troops in the Med!

Nice map Mandrake.....just needs a bit of polishing;)

[pasternakski]

It's a natcheral, boys. Those who don't like a strategic WWII in the Pacific game starting at the historical time will LOVE the fact that the beginning of the campaign game in UVMED will have to be variable based on Italian entry into the war ... Political considerations will HAVE to be built into the game (France surrenders, but all overseas possessions become Free French ... France surrenders, and Germany is able to annex major fleet units ... Italy is able to defeat Yugoslavia and Greece without major German assistance ... German successes in Russia make it possible for Italy to retain units historically committed there ... German surface raiders are contained or eliminated early, allowing enhanced British commitment to the Mediterranean ... Germany releases additional fuel reserves to the Italian fleet ... the list goes on and on and on ...)

For those who fear that the UV/WITP ground combat system will prove inadequate, rest assured. The numbers of troops committed to the Mediterranean theater were not large, certainly nothing on the level that we will see in WITP, and the terrain is no more varied than what we already see in UV.

I hope that the design will incorporate scenarios (including a grand campaign scenario) that will extend all the way through 1943 and cover the Torch landings, the Sicily campaign, and the Salerno invasion. Just think - you get to have Montgomery, Patton, and Rommel in your OOB ... not to mention Graziani and Alexander.

Besides, you can go for a cruise in this ...

[Veer]

Since UVMED would be a whole new game not a Mod, I've had idea for a Mod, which would require only minimal alterations to the existing UV engine. Basically, as I see it only the map will have to change: the combat variables, requisition system, etc can remain as they are.

Essentially I'm talking about a hypothetical Operation Sealion. It would be great. The current UV air combat routines will be able to recreate the battle of Britain quite well. The only aspect not included would be strategic area bombing, but this is actually a good thing since it was the Luftwaffe’s switch from tactical to strategic bombing that insured that Sealion would never take place. No human player would, or would want to make the same mistake.

There would be no need to change to ground combat system as ground combat would play only a minor part in the campaign. Essentially all Germany had to do was to bring enough troops and supplies over the channel for a victory. The Brits would have to prevent that from happening, not fight and resist the invasion of the beaches ala Normandy. Maybe we could have a minor hypothetical scenario (like Scen 19) where it can be assumed that Germany’s naval losses in the Norway operation were not as severe as historical & they were able to scourge up more barges/transports.

It would be a short, sharp exciting mod. No need to build in things like political consideration, timelines, withdrawal mechanisms, annexing/capturing fleets, major ground combat routines. Instead we could use the existing UV engine to show Britain’s shortage of pilots as the campaign progressed, German planes operating off poor runways, Britain having the crucial advantage of radar, the Luftwaffe trying desperately to shut down the British airfields…

Please remember, this is an idea for a mod, not a whole new game. I can see the purists already having a fit , so I’m going to go hide for bit….

[Veer]

Originally posted by pasternakski
the fact that the beginning of the campaign game in UVMED will have to be variable based on Italian entry into the war ...

Gosh... what IF Italy decides NOT to enter the war? End of game.



My only concern with a UVMED game is that the focus will shift to Land forces, with Naval and Air playing a supporting role, while in the current UV game the focus is on Air and Naval forces, with Land forces simply supporting those.

[Raverdave]

Gawd I love this thread *Drool*:D